General Suggestions Regarding the Space Race Victory

I've given this one some thought and I've come up with a few points to improve it:

-The spaceship itself should be assembled and launch from orbit ala civ2 since launching such a ship into orbit could only feasibly be done in many pieces

-In previous civ games the sapceship is built without having to research the technologies that would be involved in such an undertaking - suspended animation. advanced (closed loop) life-support systems, advanced propulsion systems, etc. In Civ 4 there should be a number of advanced space technologies the need to be researched before building can comense.

-on a more general note I would to see more use made of space in Civ4. Colonizing the Moon and Mars (and even terranforming Mars) are child's play compared with interstellar colonization. Perhaps once you've completed the Apollo Program you could invest gold or shields in space colonization in exchange for benefits. There could even be seperate Moon and Mars worls maps. Having something like this available before building your starship would make things much more realistic.

that is true but if there would be two more mars.. than game would lose it concept and would be more alike to some intergalactic strategies.. well i like playing only earth mape (ok that is just me) or historical scenarios so i dont like the more maps idea.. on the other side moon landing had a big effect on real world and maybe moon should be represented as some kind a wonder that would put on happines points and perhaps cultural?

@Titan2018: Can you see any colonies on Moon or Mars as it is now? Well, then they shouldn't be in Civ either. Call to Power is your cup of tea.

@shr00mz: Apollo program kind of represents the moon landing, now doesn't it?

@Shyrramar - Well if your going to go ahead and say since the moon and mars are not colonized, then we should just do away with the space ship, cos we dont have the tech as it is now.

that being said, I would support the moon colonization, perhaps that replacing the Alpha Cen. Mission?

I support the idea of having 'extra-planetary' colonisation in the game-but more as abstract concepts than an actual mini-game idea!

i.e. After you have apollo project, you can build space 'units'-which cost population, when you've built them you can 'launch' them. Like the Alpha Cent mission this will have a certain % chance of success-which will increase as you get more space techs. After x turns, you will be informed if your mission succeeded or failed. If it succeeds, then you name your new colony, and that colony adds to your luxuries, wealth, production and population. As you get new technologies, you can terraform your colony and stuff-but all through either a pop-up screen or a seperate screen (like trade etc).
If you learn of another civs colony, you might be able to attack it, again in an abstract fashion-and you'll be informed of whether you succeed!
Anyway, thats just my bare bones explaination. If you want more specific info, please feel free to ask !

Aussie_Lurker.

Originally posted by Shyrramar
@Titan2018: Can you see any colonies on Moon or Mars as it is now? Well, then they shouldn't be in Civ either. Call to Power is your cup of tea.

@shr00mz: Apollo program kind of represents the moon landing, now doesn't it?

Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that under the current model of the starship victory you are supposed to be doing interstellar travel with 20th century technology!

The effect I'm talking about could be achieved by adding a few future space technologies like the ones I mentioned above and perhaps some future space "wonders" coulde be built (or they could simply be small wonder prerequesists for building the starship). There could be a "Lunar Colonization" and a "Mars Colonization" wonder that could confer certain benefits and represent to development of the techmologies needed for such n undertaking while not involving a 2nd world map which would detract from the game. After all, you have to learn to walk before you can run and you have to master interplanetary travel before you can think about interstellar travel.

Originally posted by Shyrramar
@shr00mz: Apollo program kind of represents the moon landing, now doesn't it?

Click to expand...

ups.. you got that right yes.. happens..

The whole point of the spaceship is simply to create another way to win besides conquering the world (civ 3 added a few more, like the UN, but IIRC, Civ 1 really only had conquest or spaceship). Sure, its not realistic given that the modern age ends with current or just-around-the-corner techs, but on the other hand, "Colony on the Moon" just isn't as dramatic - it hardly sounds like something worth declaring you the winner of the game over.

I'm happy with the situation as is. I think other maps would change the nature of the game too much, and I think all sorts of future techs are also out of place (like Shyrramar said, leave them in Call to Power). But I like having different options for how to win the game, and "Spaceship to Alpha Centauri" sounds cool enough to be a victory condition... "Moon Colony" just doesn't cut it for me. Even "Mars colony" is borderline... the idea, I believe, is that a self-sufficient colony on another world would ensure the "immortality" of your civilization (in some sense), and the moon and Mars just aren't that hospitable to life. Until proven otherwise, we can at least imagine that Alpha Centauri has an earth-like planet orbiting it. (Maybe by Civ 5 or Civ 6 they can use a star system that has had an earth-like planet discovered in it, who knows... )

Originally posted by judgement
The whole point of the spaceship is simply to create another way to win besides conquering the world (civ 3 added a few more, like the UN, but IIRC, Civ 1 really only had conquest or spaceship). Sure, its not realistic given that the modern age ends with current or just-around-the-corner techs, but on the other hand, "Colony on the Moon" just isn't as dramatic - it hardly sounds like something worth declaring you the winner of the game over.

I'm happy with the situation as is. I think other maps would change the nature of the game too much, and I think all sorts of future techs are also out of place (like Shyrramar said, leave them in Call to Power). But I like having different options for how to win the game, and "Spaceship to Alpha Centauri" sounds cool enough to be a victory condition... "Moon Colony" just doesn't cut it for me. Even "Mars colony" is borderline... the idea, I believe, is that a self-sufficient colony on another world would ensure the "immortality" of your civilization (in some sense), and the moon and Mars just aren't that hospitable to life. Until proven otherwise, we can at least imagine that Alpha Centauri has an earth-like planet orbiting it. (Maybe by Civ 5 or Civ 6 they can use a star system that has had an earth-like planet discovered in it, who knows... )

Click to expand...

True, but I wasn't asying that building a moon or a mars base would be the victory condition just that they would be steps along the way to the victory condition itself. Perhaps it could all be bundled up into one "superwonder"(production points would represent the R&D nesesary for such a project) that enables the building of the the final victory wonder as with "The Voice of Planet" and "The Ascent to Transcendace in Alpha centauri. I just want the Starship victory to be more realistic

Originally posted by Titan2018
The effect I'm talking about could be achieved by adding a few future space technologies like the ones I mentioned above and perhaps some future space "wonders" coulde be built (or they could simply be small wonder prerequesists for building the starship). There could be a "Lunar Colonization" and a "Mars Colonization" wonder that could confer certain benefits and represent to development of the techmologies needed for such n undertaking while not involving a 2nd world map which would detract from the game. After all, you have to learn to walk before you can run and you have to master interplanetary travel before you can think about interstellar travel.

Click to expand...

If this idea does not involve any additional maps or actual colonies (so that the colonies on Mars has no game-effects), then I withdraw my objection. I see no point in this, but I have nothing particular against it either. Just like judgement said, the spaceship is just an utopistic way to describe that you have achieved scientific (and productive) supremacy. I have never even thought that there is something wrong there: the non-realism of it doesn't matter, as it is just a fun way of ending the game. It doesn't actually make you the diplomatic ruler of the world to be elected as the secretary of UN (or whatever), nor is it very realistic to conquer ALL other civilizations or have a nation that takes up to 66% or all land mass. It is not the point: they only represent your supremacy in one field.

Originally posted by Titan2018
True, but I wasn't asying that building a moon or a mars base would be the victory condition just that they would be steps along the way to the victory condition itself. Perhaps it could all be bundled up into one "superwonder"(production points would represent the R&D nesesary for such a project) that enables the building of the the final victory wonder as with "The Voice of Planet" and "The Ascent to Transcendace in Alpha centauri. I just want the Starship victory to be more realistic

Click to expand...

The spaceship is already basically a "superwonder," with a bunch of different parts that need to be built. Adding a few parts called "Lunar base" and "Mars colony" that need to be built first might add a touch of realism (since those things will undoubtedly happen long before interstellar travel happens) but doesn't really change the game at all. In other words, like Shyrramar said, I have no objections, but I don't really see the point. The game is full of "unrealistic" things, most of them don't affect the gameplay or detract in any way from the fun. There are a few such things that do affect gameplay, but I don't think the spaceship ending is one of them, so fixing it just isn't real high on my list of hoped-for changes.

Originally posted by judgement
The spaceship is already basically a "superwonder," with a bunch of different parts that need to be built. Adding a few parts called "Lunar base" and "Mars colony" that need to be built first might add a touch of realism (since those things will undoubtedly happen long before interstellar travel happens) but doesn't really change the game at all. In other words, like Shyrramar said, I have no objections, but I don't really see the point. The game is full of "unrealistic" things, most of them don't affect the gameplay or detract in any way from the fun. There are a few such things that do affect gameplay, but I don't think the spaceship ending is one of them, so fixing it just isn't real high on my list of hoped-for changes.

Click to expand...

Ture and perhaps that is the best way to do it. You could add the "component" "long duration spaceflight.

I still wonder though, if you are building an Interstellar spacecraft, howcome there isn't a single satellite in the sky. Why do you still rely on stealing maps to see the other opponents territory? Shouldn't you be able to build satellites(not for production purposes, like in AC), but at least for spying and commercial/communication/luxury purposes.

In my opinion: yes.

I think that have additional maps for the moon, mars and other planets would be a great idea, but probably would best in an expansion pack or something similar.

Having nations argue other the moon and mars resources would be entertaing!

I agree building up in space should have a larger place in the game! It should be possible to launch sattelites to give you different benefits!

Perhaps there should be a race for the moon to, and the winner could get a flying start in the later spaceship program, for instance cheaper moduls!

Civilization 2: Test of Time added the concept of stacked maps. There tile impovements, city improvements, or unit abilities allowed movement on other maps. I am quite fond of the idea myself actually. One of the new game features was being on AC and Earth at the same time!

Yes, I liked that part of Test of Time quite a bit, but the novelty wears off after the first game or two. It should maybe either be in an expansion or just an option to be able to build on Earth, in space and on Planet all at the same time.

A Civ 3 ToT would be good, IMO, even if it didn't have fantasy or sci-fi. Stackedmaps would work well for Earth-Moon-Mars-Centauri. If they did that they might even let you decide in rules how many stacked maps each scenario was to have, and to be able to decide on the sizes of each one.

The problem with the current space victory is 2-fold

First, it screws up the modern age because its mostly designed with the purpose of launching this spaceship whihc is, is reality, beyond our abilities.

Second, its just not realistic from a feasibiliy prospective. Even Fusion Power wnot get you to another star. You need 2 more ages to make this realistic.

Possible Solutions:

1)Create an additional age with realistic future techs. i.e. A.I., nanotech, techocracy, laser weapons, neutron bombs, etc. I know many puristic don't like this idea. It would work if we avoid Female Cyborgs. ecoterrorists, contraception wonders, etc. and other nonsense that plagued CTP future eras.

2)Make the spaceship a tougher task to build. the DyP mod does this by requiring more parts.

3) go to Mars instead with the goals of landing a certain number of colonists (may require multiple ships).