Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.
All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21
Discussion Thread: (4-21) Proposal: Espionage - Rework of Mission Duration Modifiers
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
The intention of this proposal:
Proposal:
(1) Each mission has a mission-specific Base Duration B. It is modified by a Game-Speed Modifier GS to obtain the Standard Duration S.
S = B*GS
(2) The mission duration is calculated by applying three percentage modifiers to the Standard Duration: Spy Power SP, City Security CS, and Empire Difference ED.
Total Mission Duration = S*(1 + SP + CS + ED)
The Total Mission Duration is capped between 50% and 150% of the Standard Duration.
The values used:
B (Base Duration): Changes to the base durations are not part of this proposal, as it focuses on the duration modifiers. For reference, the currently used values are listed below.
GS (Game-Speed Modifier): (67% / 100% / 150% / 300%) for (quick / standard / epic / marathon). These are the usual duration modifiers for game speed that are also used in many other contexts, like growth or research costs. For example, a siphon mission (base duration 30) will have a standard duration of 20/30/45/90 Turns.
SP (Spy Power): Spy Power is a negative modifier, so it decreases mission durations by the specified percentage value. Spy Power is (0% / -25% / -50%) for Spies of Level (1 / 2 / 3). Note that English spies operate 1 level higher, so their missions will be 25% quicker.
CS (City Security): City Security is the star rating of the city that's shown in the espionage screen, with values between 0% and +50%. City Security is +25% for all cities before the first player has reached Renaissance. After that it changes gradually each turn using the following modifiers:
ED (Empire Difference): This modifier is based on the difference in the number of policies and technologies between the spy owner and the targeted civ. Spy Missions are quicker against technologically/culturally superior civs, and slower against inferior ones. It's calculated as 4% * (Difference in Number of Policies), capped between -20% and 20%. Additionally 4% * (Difference in Number of Techs), capped between -20% and 20%. So, if a spy is send against a civ with 2 more policies and 3 more techs than the spy owner, mission durations are reduced by 20%.
EDIT: Proposal amended: Changes to espionage buildings removed. Previous spy missions modifier removed. Proposal rewritten to make it clearer. Minor changes to some values.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21a
Discussion Thread: (4-21a) Counterproposal: Espionage - Rework of Mission Duration Modifiers
Proposer: @amateurgamer88
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
First, I want to thank @axatin for the hard work of showing all the values and making the proposals. My counterproposals to spy proposals are more for getting conversation going and just sharing what I like to see for espionage.
Things to keep from Original Proposal:
The (mission-specific) base mission durations are directly modified by game speed using the usual duration modifiers (67/100/150/300 for quick/standard/epic/marathon). For example, a siphon mission will then have a base duration of 20/30/45/90 Turns. This will make espionage much more homogeneous across game speeds.
New Proposal Components:
For example, let's say we use a standard pace siphon mission.
Rationale:
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21b
Discussion Thread: (4-21b) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Mission Selection
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
Proposal:
Rationale:
EDIT: Point 3 added.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21c
Discussion Thread: (4-21c) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Siphon Missions
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
Problems with the current Siphon Missions:
Proposal to address these issues:
When a siphon mission is completed, it doesn't result in an instant yield, but in a yield change per turn over a certain duration (like a trade deal). The transferred amount per turn is based on the average of the city yields while the spy was in it to conduct the mission. The effect duration is always the base mission duration (so operating quicker than the base mission length will be rewarded).
Example:
It takes a spy 25 turns to complete the "Steal Gold" mission in a city. The city produces 50 gold per turn on average in this time. Then, the mission will result in 25 gold per turn (50% of 50 gold per turn) being transferred from the city owner to the spy owner for a duration of 30 turns (total amount: 750). If the spy had taken 30 or 35 turns to complete the mission, these values wouldn't be different.
In the current implementation, an amount of 625 gold would have been stolen instantly.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21d
Discussion Thread: (4-21d) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Counterspies
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
Problems: Counterspies are too weak and are rarely used. When a counterspy kills an enemy spy, their mission is completed anyway, which doesn't make much sense.
Proposal:
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.
All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21
Discussion Thread: (4-21) Proposal: Espionage - Rework of Mission Duration Modifiers
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
The intention of this proposal:
- Make defense against enemy spies more controllable for the player and more relevant. Increase the value of buildings like Constabularies and of Counterspies.
- Fix several issues with the current espionage mission duration modifiers, including:
- The modifiers for tech/policy difference (intended to make spy missions against technologically/culturally superior civs shorter) are not in all cases applied.
- England's UA leads to English Cities being more vulnerable to enemy spies than the cities of other civs at the beginning of Renaissance (because the star rating of English cities decreases from turn 1 on, while it's constant at max value for all players without spies)
- Mission Durations are reduced on Quick Game Speed, but aren't increased on Epic and Marathon Speed.
- An additional spy level (or England's UA bonus) decreases mission durations by only an insignificant 6%
Proposal:
(1) Each mission has a mission-specific Base Duration B. It is modified by a Game-Speed Modifier GS to obtain the Standard Duration S.
S = B*GS
(2) The mission duration is calculated by applying three percentage modifiers to the Standard Duration: Spy Power SP, City Security CS, and Empire Difference ED.
Total Mission Duration = S*(1 + SP + CS + ED)
The Total Mission Duration is capped between 50% and 150% of the Standard Duration.
The values used:
B (Base Duration): Changes to the base durations are not part of this proposal, as it focuses on the duration modifiers. For reference, the currently used values are listed below.
Spoiler Base Durations :
GS (Game-Speed Modifier): (67% / 100% / 150% / 300%) for (quick / standard / epic / marathon). These are the usual duration modifiers for game speed that are also used in many other contexts, like growth or research costs. For example, a siphon mission (base duration 30) will have a standard duration of 20/30/45/90 Turns.
SP (Spy Power): Spy Power is a negative modifier, so it decreases mission durations by the specified percentage value. Spy Power is (0% / -25% / -50%) for Spies of Level (1 / 2 / 3). Note that English spies operate 1 level higher, so their missions will be 25% quicker.
CS (City Security): City Security is the star rating of the city that's shown in the espionage screen, with values between 0% and +50%. City Security is +25% for all cities before the first player has reached Renaissance. After that it changes gradually each turn using the following modifiers:
Spoiler :
ED (Empire Difference): This modifier is based on the difference in the number of policies and technologies between the spy owner and the targeted civ. Spy Missions are quicker against technologically/culturally superior civs, and slower against inferior ones. It's calculated as 4% * (Difference in Number of Policies), capped between -20% and 20%. Additionally 4% * (Difference in Number of Techs), capped between -20% and 20%. So, if a spy is send against a civ with 2 more policies and 3 more techs than the spy owner, mission durations are reduced by 20%.
EDIT: Proposal amended: Changes to espionage buildings removed. Previous spy missions modifier removed. Proposal rewritten to make it clearer. Minor changes to some values.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21a
Discussion Thread: (4-21a) Counterproposal: Espionage - Rework of Mission Duration Modifiers
Proposer: @amateurgamer88
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
First, I want to thank @axatin for the hard work of showing all the values and making the proposals. My counterproposals to spy proposals are more for getting conversation going and just sharing what I like to see for espionage.
Things to keep from Original Proposal:
The (mission-specific) base mission durations are directly modified by game speed using the usual duration modifiers (67/100/150/300 for quick/standard/epic/marathon). For example, a siphon mission will then have a base duration of 20/30/45/90 Turns. This will make espionage much more homogeneous across game speeds.
New Proposal Components:
- The base duration, once modified by game speed, will be the Standard duration.
- Mission duration can be shortened by Spy Power. Spy Power is affected by the rank of the spy and UA. Rank 1 gives nothing. Rank 2 gives -10% of the Standard duration while Rank 3 gives -25% of the Standard duration. England gets an additional -10% of the Standard duration.
- Buildings increase the Standard duration for Foreign Spies.
- Policies and Tenets can increase/decrease the Standard duration for Foreign/Friendly Spies.
- Duration is capped at +/-33% of the Standard duration.
Spoiler Details of (3) and (4) :
For example, let's say we use a standard pace siphon mission.
- Standard duration: 30 turns.
- Level 1/2/3 Spies take 30/27/22 turns respectively.
- Level 1/2/3 English Spies take 24/20/20 turns respectively.
- Level 1/2/3 Spies take 32/29/24 turns respectively if Constabulary and Police Station are in the City.
- Level 1/2/3 English Spies take 26/21/21 turns respectively if Constabulary and Police Station are in the City.
- Level 1/2/3 Spies take 35/32/27 turns respectively if Constabulary and Police Station are in the City while both Empiricism and Double Agents are adopted by City owner.
- Level 1/2/3 English Spies take 29/24/24 turns respectively if Constabulary and Police Station are in the City while both Empiricism and Double Agents are adopted by City owner.
Rationale:
- The original proposal had far too many variables. It's a lot of numbers to understand. I personally prefer something that's much simpler. We know the impact of spies ranks, buildings and policies. Tweaking the numbers is also much simpler.
- Less variability. The idea is that you won't have situations where Renaissance Era might see much shorter durations and Modern Era durations being double if not longer. Makes spy missions more consistent and easier to balance if we can say that, on average, the mission takes X turns with Y yields. Is X*Y yields reasonable?
- Allows Security Level and Spy Resistance to be variables for other aspects of espionage (to be discussed in another counterproposal). Various aspects of espionage can be more modular.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21b
Discussion Thread: (4-21b) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Mission Selection
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
Proposal:
- If a spy arrives in an enemy city and there is no mission to choose from, the spy goes into a state "Surveillance Established" (like the state "No Tech to steal" from the base game) and doesn't have to leave the city anymore. When a mission becomes available, the mission select screen appears.
- If a spy has completed a mission and hasn't been identified, the mission select screen appears and the next mission can be chosen.
- The mission select screen shows the additional option to go the state "Surveillance Established" and delay mission selection for one more turn (the screen will reappear in the next turn)
Rationale:
- There are cases in which no mission can be chosen for example because the city is currently in resistance and produces no yields. Then all the time of moving the spy to the city and establishing surveillance is wasted if there's no option to keep the spy in the city and delay mission selection a bit.
- It's an unnecessary restriction to be forced to continue with the same mission as the previous one. Selecting a new mission is desirable in particular if a spy has leveled up.
- As pointed out by @Stalker0 : "A resistance will turn off the siphon missions for example but not some of the other missions, which I may not want. [With only point 1 of the proposal implemented] you still are ultimately stuck doing a crappy mission you didn't want or lose all the spy setup time."
EDIT: Point 3 added.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21c
Discussion Thread: (4-21c) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Siphon Missions
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
Problems with the current Siphon Missions:
- The reward from the missions scales with mission duration, meaning that mission duration effectively doesn't matter at all. There is no difference in the reward for completing two missions of 30 turns each and the reward for completing three missions of 20 turns each
- Yields are stolen as instant yields, which (a) encourages the gamey behavior of always spending all the gold one has to prevent it from being stolen, (b) is frustrating for the player if they are on the receiving end and (c) contributes to overall yield inflation as the spy owner always gets the full amount even if that's more than can currently be stolen
Proposal to address these issues:
When a siphon mission is completed, it doesn't result in an instant yield, but in a yield change per turn over a certain duration (like a trade deal). The transferred amount per turn is based on the average of the city yields while the spy was in it to conduct the mission. The effect duration is always the base mission duration (so operating quicker than the base mission length will be rewarded).
Example:
It takes a spy 25 turns to complete the "Steal Gold" mission in a city. The city produces 50 gold per turn on average in this time. Then, the mission will result in 25 gold per turn (50% of 50 gold per turn) being transferred from the city owner to the spy owner for a duration of 30 turns (total amount: 750). If the spy had taken 30 or 35 turns to complete the mission, these values wouldn't be different.
In the current implementation, an amount of 625 gold would have been stolen instantly.
VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 21d
Discussion Thread: (4-21d) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Counterspies
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor: @axatin
Proposal Details
Problems: Counterspies are too weak and are rarely used. When a counterspy kills an enemy spy, their mission is completed anyway, which doesn't make much sense.
Proposal:
- When a counterspy kills an enemy spy, the mission does not come into effect (no gold/tourism/tech is stolen etc.)
- To make up for this, kill chance is slightly decreased with an additional modifier: -10% kill chance for every level the attacking spy is above the first level (the level of the attacking spy is currently not considered in the kill chance calculation)
- The level restrictions for counterspy missions are removed, giving more options to use also low-level spies defensively
Spoiler The four counterspy missions :
