[Vote] (5-14) Proposals to Reduce Faith Costs In Later Eras

[Anarcomu]

Proposal 5-14
Author: Anarcomu
Current :

• Pre-Renaissance : 100%
• Renaissance : 150%
• Industrial : 200%
• Modern : 300%
• Atomic : 400%
• Information : 500%

Proposed :

• Pre-Renaissance : 100%
• Renaissance : 125%
• Industrial : 150%
• Modern : 175%
• Atomic : 200%
• Information : 200%

Rational : The actual situation means that starting with renaissance, spreading faith with missionaries becomes harder and harder, and buying new faith buildings becomes less interesting, even thought it is a full belief. Also, Spain's UA and Zealotry belief loose a lot of their meat as the game goes on. Also starting with industrial era, GP becomes the only relevant faith purchase, exacerbated by the fact that all other faith purchase become far too costly for their benefits.

This proposal is meant to be a first step to solve this (also i don't know if it is feasible).


counterproposal 5-14a
Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...rom-buildings-and-non-religious-units.684547/
Author: azum4roll

Remove faith cost era scaling from all buildings and all units that don't spread religion and don't remove heresy. Great People already have their own scaling and are out of scope for this proposal.

Change building costs as below:

Building	Current Cost at unlock	New Cost
Amphitheater	200	300
Opera House	520	500
Museum	800	600
Broadcast Tower	1500	800
University	300	400
Public School	800	600
Research Lab	1500	800

All belief-unlocked buildings/Monastery will stay the same cost throughout the game.

Change unit costs based on the tech tier the base unit unlocks in (exceptions for some units):

Tech Tier/Exception Unit	Current Cost at unlock (for land unit)	New Cost
Agriculture + Ancient T1	100	100
Ancient T2	100	150
Classical T1	200	200
Classical T2	200	250
Medieval T1	300	300
Medieval T2	300	350
Renaissance T1	600	400
Renaissance T2	600	500
Industrial T1	1200	600
Industrial T2	1200	700
Modern T1	2100	800
Modern T2	2100	900
Atomic T1	3200	1000
Atomic T2	3200	1200
Information T1	5000	1400
Information T2 + T3	6250	1600
Quinquereme	125	150
Siege Tower	200	200
Conquistador	300	320
Landsknecht	600	350
Mehal Sefari	1200	550
Archaeologist	450	450

Note that naval units no longer cost more in faith than land units, a slight buff for Spain.

Rationale:
Buildings cost less in production and gold in later eras, but cost more in faith. So much that the later buildings are usually not worth to spend faith on over Great People. Later buildings already have a higher base cost, and do not need to be further amplified by an era scaler.
Similar with units. How is 5000 faith a reasonable cost for a unit? Unlike production/gold, there are no non-trait/non-difficulty discounts on unit faith cost. Later units already have a higher base cost, and do not need to be further amplified by an era scaler.

 

[Enginseer]

Very feasible and implementable.

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t like how cheap this makes missionaries in later eras. I want the missionary spam to stop or slow as it does now, and we can change military units to make those cheaper without making missionaries cheaper too.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t like how cheap this makes missionaries in later eras. I want the missionary spam to stop or slow as it does now, and we can change military units to make those cheaper without making missionaries cheaper too.

Lets take a look. the biggest change is in the Modern era (a full 125% difference), so lets see what it would look like.

A missionary would cost 200 * 1.75 = 350 faith, versus 600 faith in the current version. At this point in the game I'm usually buying my 10k faith GPs.

So for the cost of a GP I can buy 17 missionaries now (which I never do), or 28.5 missionaries with this proposal.


So then the question, would people trade in a GP to get 28.5 missionaries?

 

[CppMaster]

To prevent missionary spam, they could cost X times more while being X times stronger. Much less micromanaging this way.

 

[Anarcomu]

Another thing I dislike with current implementation, is that progressing toward later eras really feel harmful when playing with faith. You have sort of an incentive to buy anything religious you can before moving to the next era, because everything will cost more, and thus accumulated faith loose value for non-GP purpose. Softening faith costs this way greatly reduce this sentiment.

 

[CppMaster]

Another thing I dislike with current implementation, is that progressing toward later eras really feel harmful when playing with faith. You have sort of an incentive to buy anything religious you can before moving to the next era, because everything will cost more, and thus accumulated faith loose value for non-GP purpose. Softening faith costs this way greatly reduce this sentiment.

Yes! Let's not increase building cost in fight in later eras, because why? It's fine to increase cost of units to reduce clutter if their strength was also increased.

 

[BliTTzZ]

Yes! Let's not increase building cost in fight in later eras, because why? It's fine to increase cost of units to reduce clutter if their strength was also increased.

It should increase with era progression, no doubt about that. However current situation is a bit extreme. We can choose something that is between Anarcomu's proposal and current scaling.

 

[Legen]

I sponsor this.

 

[Zanteogo]

I am against this.

Part of the charm of moving though the era's is how the game shifts focus. The decline of importance of the religion competition is a major aspect of this.

 

[Anarcomu]

Problem is, this render bonuses based on passive pressure very valuable, since they continue to benefit when in those eras.

 

[rkkn]

does 5-19 also reduce the cost of great people?

 

[Rekk]

does 5-19 also reduce the cost of great people?

It does not. Great People do not interact with these modifiers at all.

 

[Dimmy]

Only 4 Nos? AI is already spamming my games with missionnaries and we want to increase that? I don't get it.

EDIT: I feel it will be reversed maybe even before session 6 of the congress ^^

 

[pineappledan]

5-19a keeps missionaries and inquisitor costs as they are. It should not increase religious unit spam.

You could argue it will cause more spam indirectly by lowering Faith costs on military unit/building purchases, leaving more faith left over to buy missionaries with. However, my guess is that it will have the opposite effect. The scaling faith costs currently make faith-purchasing military units and buildings so unreasonable that people don't do it. If faith prices are made more worthwhile for those things, people will spend more faith on them, rather than making them with or.

 

[Dimmy]

It is late where I am, better off to bed than reading wrong some proposition ^^

If faith prices are made more worthwhile for those things, people will spend more faith on them, rather than making them with or.

I do it all the time regardless of cost. I mean it a free building bought with faith, saving time and hammers for building something else in the meantime. Never thought they were too expensive in cost. Aren't they already all less expensive in faith cost than hammer cost? Well I don't play deity and not emperor no more so maybe I am wrong. Let's try ^^

 

[Stalker0]

It is late where I am, better off to bed than reading wrong some proposition ^^

Never thought they were too expensive in cost. Aren't they already all less expensive in faith cost than hammer cost? Well I don't play deity and not emperor no more so maybe I am wrong. Let's try ^^

Generally how I think of the costs beyond medieval is.... is this worth a GP?

In classical/medieval the costs are still pretty low (and GP buying far away). But after that that is the comparison. If you found that the costs were comparable to GP you could buy, then I would vote no on the proposals. If however, you found your faith always going to GP buys rather than your unit buys because the cost was no longer competitive, than vote yes on one of the proposals.

 

[pineappledan]

When weighed against the cost of a Great Person, the military unit prices given by Spain, Zealotry, and for the buildings unlocked by certain Reformation beliefs, they rarely seem worth it to me. I would rather save my Faith for the next GPerson, or even hold onto it for a Great Prophet spread. In industrial, I could have a Gatling Gun for 1200 , or I could have a Great General for 1000 .

But in addition to that cost, consider that you picked Zealotry, or Spain, or Faith of the Masses with the expectation that you were getting a special deal by buying with faith. You blew a whole belief slot on unlocking that ability, after all. What is that opportunity cost worth?

 

[Stalker0]

In industrial, I could have a Gatling Gun for 1200 , or I could have a Great General for 1000 .

When I think of the GP costs, I generally think of a 15k faith GP, as that is the point where actually getting the GP becomes questionable.

I always have faith for the core GP buys up to that number, so faith only impacts how quickly I get them. But once its the 15k level, I have to "work for it". So again that's the price point I would look, as buying units and things would deny me the 15k GPs.

TTGOG changes that math a bit since I can buy so many GPs, at that point its more like 10k GPs, as sometimes I can't afford 10K ones as I've spread out my faith buying lots of different kinds of GP.