[Vote] (5-78) Remove Maintenance Cost from Great People

[Legen]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 25 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 78

Proposal

• Great People no longer have a gold maintenance cost.
  • Extends to unique Great People: Merchant of Venice and Khan.

Rationale

Unlike most type of units, Great People are not a unit type that you can produce at will and amass, and on which maintenance acts as a check; Great People are more of a sporadic reward for focusing on either specialists or warfare. As such, their maintenance cost is more of an annoyance, if a small one, instead of a soft limit on how many units your empire is producing.

 

[Rekk]

There's no reason for to implement a specific exception for Great People for such a minor effect. Only three units in the entire game lack maintenance: Trade Units (neither civilian nor military) and Spanish Inquisitors (called out specifically in UA). Great People are civilian units.

@pineappledan only suggested that Spanish Inquisitors cost zero maintenance because you could receive one and not have anything to use it on for eras. Even then, that's not (or no longer) true since Inquisitors reduce missionary spread strength.

 

[azum4roll]

The maintenance also serves as a cost for stockpiling Great Musicians/Engineers/Generals/Admirals.

 

[Recursive]

Great Works don't come cheap, you know.

 

[Legen]

Only three units in the entire game lack maintenance: Trade Units (neither civilian nor military)

I think most would consider them civilians. VP files do treat them as such.

UnitBuildingPurchaseRequired.sql

-- Civilian
('UNIT_CARAVAN','BUILDINGCLASS_CARAVANSARY'),
('UNIT_CARGO_SHIP','BUILDINGCLASS_HARBOR'),

UnitFlavors.sql

-- Other Civilians
("UNIT_CARAVAN", "FLAVOR_GOLD", 10),
("UNIT_CARAVAN", "FLAVOR_I_LAND_TRADE_ROUTE", 20),

("UNIT_CARGO_SHIP", "FLAVOR_GOLD", 20),
("UNIT_CARGO_SHIP", "FLAVOR_I_SEA_TRADE_ROUTE", 20),

("UNIT_ARCHAEOLOGIST", "FLAVOR_ARCHAEOLOGY", 30),

UnitFreePromotions.sql

-- Other Civilians
('UNIT_CARAVAN','PROMOTION_SIGHT_PENALTY'),

('UNIT_CARGO_SHIP','PROMOTION_SIGHT_PENALTY'),

('UNIT_MISSIONARY','PROMOTION_RIVAL_TERRITORY'),
('UNIT_MISSIONARY','PROMOTION_SIGHT_PENALTY'),
('UNIT_MISSIONARY','PROMOTION_UNWELCOME_EVANGELIST'),

They get no maintenance because they are akin to the Market building line, whose purpose is mainly gold generation. Great People are more akin to World Wonders: you have to focus on them, they are sporadic (compared to normal buildings) and they are meant to feel like a big reward. And they cost no maintenance, even removing the maintenance cost of any building the give for free.

The maintenance also serves as a cost for stockpiling Great Musicians/Engineers/Generals/Admirals.

Which adds a whole fun "suffering from success" aspect to Portugal's UA.

It is actually what game me the idea of this proposal; I saw a comment in one of the proposals in this session of someone complaining about how bad those early admirals feel when playing this civ, and this proposal's idea came to mind. I forgot which proposal had that comment, though.

 

[Stalker0]

The maintenance also serves as a cost for stockpiling Great Musicians/Engineers/Generals/Admirals.

I will say, at no point in any game I have ever played has maintenance on my Great People adjusted my play, not once. Not for good or ill. It is 100% a non-factor.

 

[azum4roll]

I will say, at no point in any game I have ever played has maintenance on my Great People adjusted my play, not once. Not for good or ill. It is 100% a non-factor.

Does that mean you don't save Generals for a Lebensraum push, or you save them but you think the maintenance doesn't matter?

 

[Stalker0]

Does that mean you don't save Generals for a Lebensraum push, or you save them but you think the maintenance doesn't matter?

The later. My decision to save a GP or not is never influenced by maintenance

 

[azum4roll]

The later. My decision to save a GP or not is never influenced by maintenance

That sounds like we should increase Great People maintenance rather than remove it... It isn't impactful enough to influence decisions!

 

[Stalker0]

That sounds like we should increase Great People maintenance rather than remove it... It isn't impactful enough to influence decisions!

I don't understand why you would want maintenance to influence?

Conjoined mechanics have their place but they can also water down strategic decisions. Hoarding a couple of engineers to maybe super rush a world wonder versus using them for manufactories should have nothing to do with maintenance imo, the strategic decision is already present.... you just muddy the waters but messing with the secondaries on it.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't understand why you would want maintenance to influence?

Conjoined mechanics have their place but they can also water down strategic decisions. Hoarding a couple of engineers to maybe super rush a world wonder versus using them for manufactories should have nothing to do with maintenance imo, the strategic decision is already present.... you just muddy the waters but messing with the secondaries on it.

It is, however, always better to save generals until you need to steal some land. If they were costless, how is there any decision?

 

[Stalker0]

It is, however, always better to save generals until you need to steal some land. If they were costless, how is there any decision?

and how does having a cost make it a decision? If you need to steal land, you use the general. If you don't, you hold the general. I'm not making a crappy citadel just to save some gold, those things are important and powerful

 

[Rekk]

That sounds like we should increase Great People maintenance rather than remove it... It isn't impactful enough to influence decisions!

No. There's no reason to complicate this. Units cost maintenance.

 

[Legen]

I sponsor this.