(5-CP) Counterproposal: Japan Tweaks

[Legen]

Counterproposal to (5-24) Japan Nerf by pineappledan.

Spoiler Dojo stats (changes from the base Armory underlined) :

Cost: 300
Science: +5 (from 2 )
Culture: +3 (from 0 )
Maintenance: -2
Experience: +25 xp (from +20 xp)

Doesn't require a Barracks in order to be built.
Supply: 2 (from 1)

All Melee, Mounted Melee, Naval Melee, Gunpowder and Armor Units trained in this City receive the Eight Virtues of Bushido Promotion.
When Units are promoted, gain Culture and Science based on their current Level.

-1 unhappiness from Distress.

Spoiler Formula for Dojo's "yields on leveling" mechanic :

Current formula: max{1, 4 * (NewLevel - 2)^2}

Examples:
Upon reaching level 2: 1
Upon reaching level 3: 4
Upon reaching level 4: 16
Upon reaching level 5: 36
Upon reaching level 6: 64
Upon reaching level 7: 100
Upon reaching level 8: 144

Spoiler Japan's current UA (Shogunate) :

UA: Shogunate
+1 Culture and Faith from Defense and Military Training Buildings. When a Great Admiral or Great General is born, gain 50% progress toward a Great Artist, Writer, and Musician in your Capital.

Spoiler AI difficulty handicaps :

From Recursive's 1-05 proposal, relevant lines in bold:

Difficulty Setting	What does it do?	Settler	Chieftain	Warlord	Prince	King	Emperor	Immortal	Deity
AIStartingDefenseUnits	Extra Warriors (or era equivalent unit) at game start	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1
StartingMinorDefenseUnits	Extra Warriors (or era equivalent unit) at game start for City-States	0	0	1	1	2	2	3	3
AIWorkRateModifier	Workers complete improvements x% faster	+0%	+0%	+0%	+25%	+35%	+50%	+60%	+70%
AIUnhappinessPercent	% modifier to Unhappiness from Needs	+10%	+5%	-0%	-0%	-0%	-0%	-0%	-0%
AIUnitCostPercent	Discount on unit maintenance	100%	100%	100%	90%	85%	80%	75%	70%
AIBuildingCostPercent	Discount on building maintenance	100%	100%	100%	90%	85%	80%	75%	70%
AIUnitUpgradePercent	Discount on unit upgrade cost	100%	100%	100%	90%	80%	70%	60%	50%
AITrainPercent	Modifier to combat unit production cost	110%	105%	100%	90%	85%	80%	75%	70%
AIConstructPercent	Modifier to building production cost	110%	105%	100%	90%	85%	80%	75%	70%
AIPerEraModifier	Additional reduction to building and combat unit production costs (multiplicative) for each game era that passes	-0%	-0%	-0%	-4%	-6%	-8%	-9%	-10%
AICivilianPercent (new)	Modifier to production cost for non-combat units	110%	105%	100%	100%	100%	100%	100%	100%
AICreatePercent AIWorldCreatePercent AIWorldConstructPercent	Modifiers to production cost for Projects, World Wonders and World Congress Projects	110%	105%	100%	100%	100%	100%	100%	100%
AIFreeXP	Free XP given to units (except starting pathfinder), scaling with game speed	0	0	0	10	15	20	25	30
AIFreeXPPercent	% increase to XP gain from combat	+0%	+0%	+0%	+20%	+40%	+60%	+80%	+100%
VisionBonus	Extra sight for AI units (except scouting and trade units) in # of tiles	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	2
AIResistanceCap (new)	Maximum anti-warmonger fervor AGAINST the AI	64%	48%	32%	40%	50%	50%	50%	50%
AIBarbarianBonus	AI Bonus VS Barbarians	0%	10%	20%	20%	25%	25%	30%	30%
DifficultyBonusBase	See AI Periodic Yield Bonuses, below	0	0	0	4	7	10	12	14
DifficultyBonusA	See below	0	0	0	320	335	350	360	375
DifficultyBonusB	See below	0	0	0	190	210	230	240	260
DifficultyBonusC	See below	0	0	0	100	123	145	160	180

Proposal

• Remove the Dojo's "yields on leveling" mechanic.
• Remove the yields on Defense and Military Training buildings from Japan's UA.
• Japan's UA gain the following effects:
  • Great General and Admiral birth also grant 250 Culture and Science, scaling with Era.
  • Free Great General at Iron Working.

Spoiler How the tweaked UA would look like :

UA: Shogunate
When a Great General or Great Admiral is born, gain 250 Culture and Science, scaling with Era, and 50% Great Writer/Artist/Musician progress in the Capital. Free Great General at Iron Working.

Rationale

These changes aim to replace a component that has issues with AI difficulty scaling, and reinforce the UA's GG/GA birth aspect instead. It also tries to address an issue with the Defense/Military building mechanic, which departs from its original intention.

The core issue of the "yields on leveling" mechanic is its volatile performance with the AI handicaps. This mechanic has a history of easily getting out of hand in high AI difficulties from back then, when Gazebo experimented placing it in the UA; there were reports of Deity AI Japan about 10 techs ahead when everyone else was at Classical. This mechanic scales exponentially with unit level by design, and the AI handicaps has two parameters, AIFreeXP and AIFreeXPPercent, that can push this mechanic to extremes. I suspect this mechanic is affecting AI Japan's winrate at high difficulties again by the results of the 3.6 AI Emperor/Warlord tests, in which AI Japan ranks 3rd place in Emperor and 36th in Warlord.

Notably, Japan's wins at Emperor has a significant portion of scientific victories, despite Japan's kit being mainly tailored abound cultural/domination victories instead, and AI Oda having an overall low scientific flavor (conqueror personality, the lowest science/spaceship flavor of the four types, and no personalized adjustment towards either). With the only extra science yields in Japan's kit being in the Dojo, and the leveling mechanic having a prior case of getting out of control to extreme results, there's reason to believe the same happened in those tests. Meanwhile, these yields do not perform to such degree in human hands. It is generally treated as a fun extra that quickly falls off. Human players don't generally aim for a scientific victory with this mechanic in mind, as its values are not currently tuned to carry a victory type.

So, there's a strong mismatch between how this mechanic has to be balanced between human and AI, as well as between low and high AI difficulties. This makes it a problematic mechanic on this civ's design, as what would be balanced on one end is likely to be too powerful or underwhelming on the other. Until the AI combat handicaps are reworked, it is probably healthier to refrain using leveling as part of Japan's design and focus on their other core mechanic, a.k.a. the GG/GA birth rewards.

The "yields on Defense/Military buildings" has a different issue. Originally, it was intended to cover Japan's early game, as much of Japan's kit was being moved to Medieval (the reason why the Dojo has so many effects stacked on it) and AI Japan was struggling to keep a decent pace with other civs in the first two eras. As implemented, though, this mechanic extends its usefulness to much later eras. There's also complaint about it not being particularly fun or interesting, as it just reuses a very common effect in policies and wonders with no particular link to the UA's theme. It is also tied to costly Ancient buildings; players would sometimes report struggles to find a decent build order for Japan due to the unusually high maintenance costs and unorthodox tech priority that comes from prioritizing both Barracks and Walls.

The tweaked UA aims to cover for the yields from those two mechanics, tying those to the Great General and Admiral birth instead, and reinforcing this core mechanic for Japan. Moreover, the addition of yields on GG/GA birth opens the possibility of using the UA as an early game boost through a free Great General; here, the proposed UA gives one at Iron Working, a tech that used to grant one though the Heroic Epic (instead of a Great Writer) in earlier versions of VP. This should cover the original intention behind the "yields on defense/military buildings", and expands Japan's early game with Tradition (who can take advantage of the early 50% GWAM progress and normally struggles with setting defense/military buildings) and Progress (who benefits greatly from early science), giving some extra variability over the straightforward Authority start.

The free Great General and the yields on GG/GA birth should also be insensitive to AI difficulty, neither being particularly affected by the AI parameters and only giving one extra injection of handicap yields (gold and GAP) early on. Overall, the tweaked UA should place a much closer balance parity between human and AI performance for Japan than what we currently have with the "yields on leveling" mechanic, and hopefully address the complaints regarding the yields on defense/military buildings.


Amendment: The Seii Taishogun promotion part is replaced by a free Great General at Iron Working. Rationale adjusted accordingly.

 

[Zakuzelo]

I'm a little leery of removing the leveling mechanic and yields on Defense/Military buildings entirely.
If the issue is science from leveling, why not remove just that and leave the culture? Keep that warrior-poet element, keep the quick studying Samurai especially benefiting from Dojos.
If the defense/military yields are there too give an early bonus but then scales too well, why not limit the bonus to pre-whichever-era buildings? Pre-Renaissance would be +4 total , Pre-Industrial would be +5, etc.

I do like the barbarian hunting bonus, I like that it gives you something to do in the very early game before reaching Steel, but it also seems like it'd stop being relevant as barbs dry up and you become more concerned with fighting real enemies. Compare this to Songhai's barb camp bonus and how it also effects city plunder. I'm not sure about completely removing two core features from the civ in favor of increasing the GG/GA spawning bonus and something that will effectively stop existing after a point.

 

[BliTTzZ]

Barbarian hunt mechanic could also provide something else to Japan's units. These changes make Japan more culture focused civ instead of being a warmonger. Perhaps "Banzai!" promotion should return back to Japan in this case and Imperialism should get Ironsides back?

 

[Legen]

I'm a little leery of removing the leveling mechanic and yields on Defense/Military buildings entirely.
If the issue is science from leveling, why not remove just that and leave the culture? Keep that warrior-poet element, keep the quick studying Samurai especially benefiting from Dojos.
If the defense/military yields are there too give an early bonus but then scales too well, why not limit the bonus to pre-whichever-era buildings? Pre-Renaissance would be +4 total , Pre-Industrial would be +5, etc.

The scientific wins on Emperor are more of a symptom of a larger problem. The Warlord performance indicates that the leveling mechanic is severely undertuned without the AI handicaps. However, we can't just buff it due to the Emperor performance pointing out it is overtuned when the handicaps are in play. I suspect that the leveling mechanic doesn't have a proper balance point in which it performs properly at both ends of the handicap spectrum, meaning any yield added to the leveling mechanic is bound to be impossible to balance. That's why I'm finding better to move away from the leveling mechanic for now.

Limiting the defense/military yields by era would work. I just think that, as an early boost mechanic, it could be better designed in multiple aspects: mechanically, creatively, synergistically, and in historicity.

I do like the barbarian hunting bonus, I like that it gives you something to do in the very early game before reaching Steel, but it also seems like it'd stop being relevant as barbs dry up and you become more concerned with fighting real enemies. Compare this to Songhai's barb camp bonus and how it also effects city plunder. I'm not sure about completely removing two core features from the civ in favor of increasing the GG/GA spawning bonus and something that will effectively stop existing after a point.

Barbarian hunt mechanic could also provide something else to Japan's units. These changes make Japan more culture focused civ instead of being a warmonger. Perhaps "Banzai!" promotion should return back to Japan in this case and Imperialism should get Ironsides back?

The barbarian hunt is intended to be increasingly situational in the late game, both due to historicity (it is a reference of the origins of the shogun title and the Shogunate, not a representation of their entirety) and due to how the mechanic behind it works. Being based on the CS of killed enemies means a value that is balanced early on (when units are around 8-12 CS) could be excessive in the late game (when they can go over 60 ).The intent is that, once you unlock the Dojo, the bushido promotions should carry your ability to generate Generals and Admirals for the rest of the game through sheer warring capability; I don't find Japan's overall ability to generate them to be lacking as it currently is.

I've considered Seii Taishogun to also have a "25% CS as GG/GA if the killed unit is not a barbarian" for some long term use, or a "25% CS vs barbarians" to cover for Japan's lack of military bonuses pre-Medieval, but decided for a more minimal design. So far, neither seem necessary. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

 

[pineappledan]

The problem with removing the levelling mechanic is that it's fun. I don't want to see it dropped, because I like it.

re: the GG points from barbarians, having a bonus that essentially goes away after the early game is not good. Siam has this problem, and it's not something I think we should be adding more of.

w.r.t. the title of the Seii Taishogun, the specific barbarians in question are the northern tribes of Japan, the Jomon. Considering the unacknowledged and unsavory history of Japan's relationship with its own indigenous people, this UA strikes me as pretty icky. I know we joke about the civ franchise being the genocide simulator, and we have America Manifest Destiny'ing the map, but are we really going to spotlight Japan's historical oppression and conquest of the Jomon people? The racist and imperialist treatment of the Ainu and Emishi descendants of the Jomon is still an ongoing issue, and you want players to roleplay that?

 

[AndreyK]

We can nerf leveling bonus, make it not exponencial.

 

[Legen]

The problem with removing the levelling mechanic is that it's fun. I don't want to see it dropped, because I like it.

I like it too. Still, without a proper answer to how the AI handicaps affect leveling in a civ's design, I don't find it healthy to keep it until that is addressed.

re: the GG points from barbarians, having a bonus that essentially goes away after the early game is not good. Siam has this problem, and it's not something I think we should be adding more of.

As I understand, Siam's issue is that they lack an actual bonus to maintaining an alliance to back up their initial influence gain. In Japan's case, the civ's UA has already support the UU+UB at Medieval, the time when the Seii Taishogun would start to wane, and can still get another source of GG/GA at Industrial, when GP faith purchase is unlocked. The area where Japan's UA is unsupported is the early game; I think the UA is currently supported enough at Medieval and later.

w.r.t. the title of the Seii Taishogun, the specific barbarians in question are the northern tribes of Japan, the Jomon. Considering the unacknowledged and unsavory history of Japan's relationship with its own indigenous people, this UA strikes me as pretty icky. I know we joke about the civ franchise being the genocide simulator, and we have America Manifest Destiny'ing the map, but are we really going to spotlight Japan's historical oppression and conquest of the Jomon people? The racist and imperialist treatment of the Ainu and Emishi descendants of the Jomon is still an ongoing issue, and you want players to roleplay that?

The Japanese (Yamato) are also an indigenous people of Japan themselves, and of mixed Jomon/Yayoi descendance long before their recorded clashes with the Emishi. And it is thought that the Emishi also had a hybrid Jomon/Yayoi descendance or distribution, since the region they lived in is known to have already built Kofuns centuries before their assimilation by the Yamato. This isn't a simple "Japan vs Jomon", this period seems to be the closing of a long fight for supremacy between many indigenous kingdoms and tribes with a shared heritage, with one of those kingdoms (Yamato) emerging at the top and forming an empire.

The ideas you express are also anachronistic to the context of the 8th - 12th centuries that the Seii Taishogun refers to. The concept of "nation" didn't exist yet, much less the idea that a nation could be pushed forward though racial supremacy and subjugation.

A notable case against those ideas is that some members of the Fujiwara family, the one that married their daughters to the imperial family and often acted as imperial regents during this period, declared themselves to be Emishi. There's debate over whether some Emishi became part of the family, or whether those Fujiwara members simply called themselves that way when assigned to rule over an Emishi population; either way, the Western equivalent of that would be members of the British crown calling themselves Indian or Native American, or coming from those backgrounds. This indicates that the relationship between the Yamato and the Emishi doesn't fit the Western mold.

 

[Recursive]

Military Units start with the Seii Taishogun promotion (Earn Great General Points upon killing a Land Barbarian Unit, and Great Admiral Points upon killing a Naval Barbarian Unit (250% of its Strength in both cases)).

w.r.t. the title of the Seii Taishogun, the specific barbarians in question are the northern tribes of Japan, the Jomon. Considering the unacknowledged and unsavory history of Japan's relationship with its own indigenous people, this UA strikes me as pretty icky. I know we joke about the civ franchise being the genocide simulator, and we have America Manifest Destiny'ing the map, but are we really going to spotlight Japan's historical oppression and conquest of the Jomon people? The racist and imperialist treatment of the Ainu and Emishi descendants of the Jomon is still an ongoing issue, and you want players to roleplay that?

The Japanese (Yamato) are also an indigenous people of Japan themselves, and of mixed Jomon/Yayoi descendance long before their recorded clashes with the Emishi. And it is thought that the Emishi also had a hybrid Jomon/Yayoi descendance or distribution, since the region they lived in is known to have already built Kofuns centuries before their assimilation by the Yamato. This isn't a simple "Japan vs Jomon", this period seems to be the closing of a long fight for supremacy between many indigenous kingdoms and tribes with a shared heritage, with one of those kingdoms (Yamato) emerging at the top and forming an empire.

The ideas you express are also anachronistic to the context of the 8th - 12th centuries that the Seii Taishogun refers to. The concept of "nation" didn't exist yet, much less the idea that a nation could be pushed forward though racial supremacy and subjugation.

A notable case against those ideas is that some members of the Fujiwara family, the one that married their daughters to the imperial family and often acted as imperial regents during this period, declared themselves to be Emishi. There's debate over whether some Emishi became part of the family, or whether those Fujiwara members simply called themselves that way when assigned to rule over an Emishi population; either way, the Western equivalent of that would be members of the British crown calling themselves Indian or Native American, or coming from those backgrounds. This indicates that the relationship between the Yamato and the Emishi doesn't fit the Western mold.

I've looked into it and given the associations between Seii Taishogun ("Commander-in-Chief against the Barbarians") and ideals of racial purity/supremacy among Japanese culture throughout history, including forced assimilation and cultural genocide of those viewed as "barbarians" via actions akin to residential schools and the Trail of Tears in North America, I'm not comfortable having a promotion with that title and those effects as part of VP. That feels like glorifying horrific events in a dehumanizing way, and unlike Manifest Destiny, it's more associated with the ideals of racial purity/supremacy than mere conquest. I view it as too insensitive even by my tolerant standards, particularly given that the minority groups in question are still discriminated against today and have been nearly wiped out as a culture.

I'll need you to change either the title or the effects of the promotion (preferably the effects, considering the name of the UA) or I'll have to veto this one, particularly as several community members have expressed serious discomfort with it.

Also, I won't veto it for this, but having a promotion that depends greatly on Barbarians in the early game renders the UA much weaker if playing without Barbarians, so I'm personally not crazy about the idea.

 

[Legen]

I've looked into it and given the associations between Seii Taishogun ("Commander-in-Chief against the Barbarians") and ideals of racial purity/supremacy among Japanese culture throughout history, including forced assimilation and cultural genocide of those viewed as "barbarians" via actions akin to residential schools and the Trail of Tears in North America, I'm not comfortable having a promotion with that title and those effects as part of VP. That feels like glorifying horrific events in a dehumanizing way, and unlike Manifest Destiny, it's more associated with the ideals of racial purity/supremacy than mere conquest. I view it as too insensitive even by my tolerant standards, particularly given that the minority groups in question are still discriminated against today and have been nearly wiped out as a culture.

I'll need you to change either the title or the effects of the promotion (preferably the effects, considering the name of the UA) or I'll have to veto this one, particularly as several community members have expressed serious discomfort with it.

Also, I won't veto it for this, but having a promotion that depends greatly on Barbarians in the early game renders the UA much weaker if playing without Barbarians, so I'm personally not crazy about the idea.

I'm considering change the promotion to a simple "25% CS as GG/GA on kill", making it apply on any unit kill, but at a much lower potency. This would address the concerns pointed out, but leave the early game below the intended strength. Another consideration is to replace the promotion for a simple "free Great General at Iron Working", giving about the intended early game power and being unaffected by barbarian frequency settings; not of use later on, but doesn't increase the cost of new great generals either.

On a note, I find your comparison with residential schools and Trial of Tears to be really inappropriate. I don't know what you have read about the Seii Taishogun and the Emishi, but the outcome of this period wasn't of full military conquest, but of diplomatic assimilation. The victories of the Seii Taishogun of the Heian period, while impressive for the time, were far from eliminating the Emishi, and the imperial court eventually gave up trying to conquer them. The lands of the Emishi eventually gave rise to the Northern Fujiwara, a branch of the then highly influent Fujiwara, that was founded by the son of a Fujiwara man and an Emishi woman, and the region became important in the Japanese politics and economy. Their capital, Hiraizumi, was known to be ruled by people who considered themselves Emishi and rivaled Kyoto in its economical and political power, with multiple temples and gardens built that made it a cultural center as well for both the Japanese and the Emishi. To compare the residential schools and Trial of Tears to the Emishi during the Heian period is akin to say that the Native Americans thrived as a major political, cultural and economical power in both Canada and USA, denying the atrocities that happened to those populations.

 

[Legen]

Amendment: The Seii Taishogun promotion part is replaced by a free Great General at Iron Working. Rationale adjusted accordingly.

 

[Zakuzelo]

The scientific wins on Emperor are more of a symptom of a larger problem. The Warlord performance indicates that the leveling mechanic is severely undertuned without the AI handicaps. However, we can't just buff it due to the Emperor performance pointing out it is overtuned when the handicaps are in play. I suspect that the leveling mechanic doesn't have a proper balance point in which it performs properly at both ends of the handicap spectrum, meaning any yield added to the leveling mechanic is bound to be impossible to balance. That's why I'm finding better to move away from the leveling mechanic for now.

I like it too. Still, without a proper answer to how the AI handicaps affect leveling in a civ's design, I don't find it healthy to keep it until that is addressed.

I understand your argument, but don't think it's enough to warrant removing it completely. If this is a symptom of a larger problem then fix that first. Japan's AI performance isn't so pressing an issue that we should cut a fun mechanic to address it if that mechanic isn't the actual problem.

 

[Legen]

I sponsor this.

 

[Stalker0]

combined with other counterproposals for master voting thread.