(5-CP) Counterproposal: Mongol UA and UB Buff

[pineappledan]

Current situation
Mongolia's UA - Mongol Terror:
Mounted Ranged Units benefit from Flanking when attacking and gain a +10% Flanking bonus. +100% Tribute Yields from City-State bullying.

Mongol UB - Ger (unique lodge)
unique bonuses underlined
+2 BGP, +1 Faith
+1 to Deer, Bison, horses, cattle, and sheep
+1to Camps
5 food when your borders expand naturally
-25% plot gold purchase cost and +34% border growth modifier

There have been many changes that have affected Mongolia in the recent past:

Spoiler :

• Skirmisher rework:
  • changed Skirmishers into high movement, low damage units with flanking support role
  • Mongols changed from giving all skirmishers '+2 movement and ZOC' to '+10% flanking and benefit from flanking'
• Khan changes:
  • replaced ability to plant citadels with new Ordo unique improvement which has less tile defense, but adds movement to units that pass through it
  • gave all khans 10 damage to adjacent enemy units, to go with their enhanced healing of adjacent friendly units
• Tribute reworks
  • Adjustments to CS intimidation calculations greatly reduced overall tribute yields, which affects Mongols 2x more than other civs
• Granary/Lodge/Herbalist split:
  • The Ger UB used to be a unique Granary.
  • Before the Lodge was added, the Granary was a stronger base building which gave more base bonuses more efficiently than the new Lodge
• a proposal changed all other border growth bonuses in the game from plot cost reductions to BGP modifiers.
  • This was done because multiple plot cost reductions stack exponentially, and they could combine to greatly increase border expansion. The total number of plot cost reductions also exceeded -100%, so it was possible to bottom-out the bonuses at an artificial minimum of -80% reductions.
  • This change to BGP modifiers was a very major nerf to Mongolia's tile claim abilities.

Spoiler Here is a summary of all the sources of tile claim bonuses in the game and what they do :

Spoiler Here is the math breakdown comparing Mongolia's old tile claim rate vs now :

Note: it is safe to assume that all Mongol cities will have monuments. Therefore, it makes the most sense to focus on the combined power of the UB and a Monument as a starting point.

The tile claim bonus is now 2/3rds as strong when combined with a monument, 1/3rd as strong as it was with Monument and GoE, and roughly 3/8ths as strong as it used to be with all bonuses combined.

Proposal:
UA: Mongol Terror
Mounted Ranged units have +1 Attack. 20% of Yields from City-State bullying is converted to All Yields ( )

• no longer benefit from flanking or have flanking bonus
• +100% of tribute yields replaced with yield conversion, like old version of tribute policy

UB: Ger (unique Lodge)
unique bonuses underlined. New parts Bolded in Red
+2 BGP, +1 Faith
+1 to Deer, Bison, horses, cattle, and sheep
+1to Camps and Pastures
5 food and Production when your borders expand naturally
-25% plot gold purchase cost and +50% border growth modifier

Reasoning:
Skirmisher bonus change:

• The Mongol UA needs to convert a ranged support unit into a mainline damage dealer. The current bonus is not sufficient for the task
• +1 attack makes skirmishers capable of more direct damage, but is not unfair because of the skirmisher line's low base RCS
• The bonus is more straightforward, easier to use
• Double attacks means more XP from combat, which means more Khans. The Mongols do not currently have an ability that assists them in generating GGeneral points faster, and +1 attack can do that
• The +1 attack can stack with logistics for 3 attacks on a unit, but this is not recommended. 3 attacks as -30% RCS is barely any more damage than 2 full strength attacks, but costs more moves.
• The flanking bonus can move to be a pickable promotion. The skirmisher line has a shortage of those. see Proposal 5-54

Tribute bonus change

• The current +100% yield bonus is almost identical to the Zulu's +50% intimidation bonus. The end result is more yields from tribute, which makes them functionally indistinguishable
• If Stalker0's Tribute rework goes through, the only yield that base tribute will give is gold. Heavy tribute would be quest rewards, and not interact with tribute bonuses, meaning that the Mongol bonus will only ever give gold, unless paired with some policy augmentation
• Meanwhile the Zulu's bonus will still make heavy tribute easier, so it still retains utility outside of raw gold. This makes the Mongol version of the bonus less flexible and interesting, so it is the Mongol UA that should change.

Ger Changes:

• just more and stronger yields.
• The Ger is weak, and increasing the numbers it gives is sufficient.
• changing the horse/cattle/sheep bonus to a pasture improvement bonus is cleaner, less text, and still fits the theme well.

 

[Stalker0]

MAGI: Clarification requested, is the skirmisher promotion change meant to be a mongol specific thing, or a more general promotion?

If more general, I would ask for that to be split into a seperate proposal, as it would affect far more than just mongols (and doesn't seem to be a lynchpin of this proposal).

 

[azum4roll]

MAGI: Clarification requested, is the skirmisher promotion change meant to be a mongol specific thing, or a more general promotion?

If more general, I would ask for that to be split into a seperate proposal, as it would affect far more than just mongols (and doesn't seem to be a lynchpin of this proposal).

The promotion requires the other parts of this proposal to pass to make sense.

 

[Stalker0]

The promotion requires the other parts of this proposal to pass to make sense.

I don't see that at all. There is nothing about this mongol UA that requires a generic skirmisher promotion to exist or not. You can implement this UA as written, and there is 0 conflict if the generic skirmisher promotion passed or not.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't see that at all. There is nothing about this mongol UA that requires a generic skirmisher promotion to exist or not. You can implement this UA as written, and there is 0 conflict if the generic skirmisher promotion passed or not.

You're fine with the same promotion existing in both the Mongol UA and the promotion tree?

 

[pineappledan]

The proposal is to make a new mongol UA promotion and move the existing mongol UA promotion to be a pickable promotion. If it’s still the mongol promotion then I can’t make it a pickable one. I need one to pass to do the other.

 

[Rekk]

We've given up on implementing "XP on first attack only"?

 

[pineappledan]

I still hope that will be implemented. Maybe if it is, getting full XP on 2nd attack could be a unique Mongol trait?

 

[Stalker0]

The proposal is to make a new mongol UA promotion and move the existing mongol UA promotion to be a pickable promotion. If it’s still the mongol promotion then I can’t make it a pickable one. I need one to pass to do the other.

This is how I would structure it.

• Current Proposal (we will call A). Removes the skirmisher flank from the UA. (we remove the note about generic skirmisher flank promotion).
• New Proposal (we will call B). Moves the skirmisher promotion to a generic one. Mongol UA is updated to say that "all skirmisher units gain the new generic promotion".

If A passes, B fails: Mongols no longer has skirmisher flank on UA, has no promotion to get access to it.
If A fails, B passes: All units have generic skirmisher promotion, Mongols gets this by default on all its units as part of its UA.
If A passes, B passes: All units have generic skirmisher promotion, Mongols do not get this default in their UA but can take it on units.
If A fails, B fails: No change

 

[pineappledan]

proposal amended with Magi's instructions. split into 5-54: new Skirmisher pickable promotion

I think this is going to blow up in our collective faces. I can't see why a new skirmisher promotion wouldn't get passed, but I can see this proposal not getting sponsored or not getting passed for any number of reasons. The end result is likely that Mongols will just backslide into being even less powerful and unique.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Current situation
Mongolia's UA - Mongol Terror:
Mounted Ranged Units benefit from Flanking when attacking and gain a +10% Flanking bonus. +100% Tribute Yields from City-State bullying.

Mongol UB - Ger (unique lodge)
unique bonuses underlined
+2 BGP, +1 Faith
+1 to Deer, Bison, horses, cattle, and sheep
+1to Camps
5 food when your borders expand naturally
-25% plot gold purchase cost and +34% border growth modifier

There have been many changes that have affected Mongolia in the recent past:

• Skirmisher rework:
  • changed Skirmishers into high movement, low damage units with flanking support role
  • Mongols changed from giving all skirmishers '+2 movement and ZOC' to '+10% flanking and benefit from flanking'
• Khan changes:
  • replaced ability to plant citadels with new Ordo unique improvement which has less tile defense, but adds movement to units that pass through it
  • gave all khans 10 damage to adjacent enemy units, to go with their enhanced healing of adjacent friendly units
• Tribute reworks
  • Adjustments to CS intimidation calculations greatly reduced overall tribute yields, which affects Mongols 2x more than other civs
• Granary/Lodge/Herbalist split:
  • The Ger UB used to be a unique Granary.
  • Before the Lodge was added, the Granary was a stronger base building which gave more base bonuses more efficiently than the new Lodge
• a proposal changed all other border growth bonuses in the game from plot cost reductions to BGP modifiers.
  • This was done because multiple plot cost reductions stack exponentially, and they could combine to greatly increase border expansion. The total number of plot cost reductions also exceeded -100%, so it was possible to bottom-out the bonuses at an artificial minimum of -80% reductions.
  • This change to BGP modifiers was a very major nerf to Mongolia's tile claim abilities.

Spoiler Here is a summary of all the sources of tile claim bonuses in the game and what they do :

View attachment 666784

Spoiler Here is the math breakdown comparing Mongolia's old tile claim rate vs now :

View attachment 666785

Note: it is safe to assume that all Mongol cities will have monuments. Therefore, it makes the most sense to focus on the combined power of the UB and a Monument as a starting point.

The tile claim bonus is now 2/3rds as strong when combined with a monument, 1/3rd as strong as it was with Monument and GoE, and roughly 3/8ths as strong as it used to be with all bonuses combined.

Proposal:
UA: Mongol Terror
Mounted Ranged units have +1 Attack. 20% of Yields from City-State bullying is converted to All Yields c5food:)

• no longer benefit from flanking or have flanking bonus
• +100% of tribute yields replaced with yield conversion, like old version of tribute policy

UB: Ger (unique Lodge)
unique bonuses underlined. New parts Bolded in Red
+2 BGP, +1 Faith
+1 to Deer, Bison, horses, cattle, and sheep
+1to Camps and Pastures
5 food and Production when your borders expand naturally
-25% plot gold purchase cost and +50% border growth modifier

Reasoning:
Skirmisher bonus change:

• The Mongol UA needs to convert a ranged support unit into a mainline damage dealer. The current bonus is not sufficient for the task
• +1 attack makes skirmishers capable of more direct damage, but is not unfair because of the skirmisher line's low base RCS
• The bonus is more straightforward, easier to use
• Double attacks means more XP from combat, which means more Khans. The Mongols do not currently have an ability that assists them in generating GGeneral points faster, and +1 attack can do that
• The +1 attack can stack with logistics for 3 attacks on a unit, but this is not recommended. 3 attacks as -30% RCS is barely any more damage than 2 full strength attacks, but costs more moves.
• The flanking bonus can move to be a pickable promotion. The skirmisher line has a shortage of those. see Proposal 5-54

Tribute bonus change

• The current +100% yield bonus is almost identical to the Zulu's +50% intimidation bonus. The end result is more yields from tribute, which makes them functionally indistinguishable
• If Stalker0's Tribute rework goes through, the only yield that base tribute will give is gold. Heavy tribute would be quest rewards, and not interact with tribute bonuses, meaning that the Mongol bonus will only ever give gold, unless paired with some policy augmentation
• Meanwhile the Zulu's bonus will still make heavy tribute easier, so it still retains utility outside of raw gold. This makes the Mongol version of the bonus less flexible and interesting, so it is the Mongol UA that should change.

Ger Changes:

• just more and stronger yields.
• The Ger is weak, and increasing the numbers it gives is sufficient.
• changing the horse/cattle/sheep bonus to a pasture improvement bonus is cleaner, less text, and still fits the theme well.

Yeah, I generally feel skirmishers need some buff for civs that use them as a main fighting force. Mongols, Huns, Manchu to name some. This is a good start. It helps the Mongols fight in constrained spaces.
For other civs, I like the skirmisher niche role.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor

 

[axatin]

Proposal was combined with other proposals for voting master thread.