[UI] (5-NS) Roman Legion's Pilum ability should not affect Naval Units

[usadefcon1]

Currently the Roman Legion's Pilum ability affects Naval Units. This seems beyond the scope of what the Pilum was actually used for which was to disrupt formations.

Therefore I propose we make it so that the Pilum does not affect Naval Units.

Spoiler Pilum in its current form :

While Fortified, adjacent Enemy Units take 10 Damage at the beginning of every turn.

 

[Tekamthi]

would be nice to have these separated into two promo table fields -- a naval pilum & a land pilum. For thematic reasons I generally agree with OP as far as the Roman legion goes, though at same time its nice to have melee units able to participate in coastal defence

 

[pineappledan]

Might be a heavy lift for a coder to split the tick damage to check for naval/land enemies. I don't see much benefit either. Sure, there is some verisimilitude benefit, but legions are already restricted to land tiles and will mainly use this ability against land units already.

 

[Recursive]

Might be a heavy lift for a coder to split the tick damage to check for naval/land enemies.

pUnit->getDomainType() != pOtherUnit->getDomainType()

 

[Tekamthi]

a naval pilum widely available to land melee, maybe as an 'Amphibious II' or something might add some depth to defensive options

 

[azum4roll]

If it's better to limit Pilum by domain, what about other adjacent damage sources like Citadel, Khan, Encampment, Kasbah, etc.?

 

[pineappledan]

certainly not those, surely? Using citadels as coastal forts is both historical and useful

 

[Tekamthi]

Are there situations where OP concern upsets the balance of gameplay? I agree w/ it on thematic grounds, but the more I read here and the more I reflect, I think I prefer to have the ability affect naval as well, strikes me as an acceptable abstraction.

 

[usadefcon1]

Are there situations where OP concern upsets the balance of gameplay? I agree w/ it on thematic grounds, but the more I read here and the more I reflect, I think I prefer to have the ability affect naval as well, strikes me as an acceptable abstraction.

It's an ability that only applies to one Civilization's unique unit, it can't upset the balance of gameplay that much.

 

[Tekamthi]

It's an ability that only applies to one Civilization's unique unit, it can't upset the balance of gameplay that much.

does it confer an undue advantage to rome in coastal combat? i haven't played rome in a long while, just wondering how much of a gameplay reason there is to change vs thematic

 

[pineappledan]

It's an ability that only applies to one Civilization's unique unit, it can't upset the balance of gameplay that much.

AoE of Fortify is part of a larger group of aoe damage effects that units have, and more broadly that units and improvements have.

There is:
AoE On Attack (splash)
AoE on Kill (overrun)
AoE on Turn (Khan)
AoE on Move (only used in modmods)
AoE on Fortify (legion)

If you change one AoE effect, you change all of them. Anything less is unacceptable. If these abilities start having Calvinball rules about what they do and do not hit with no internal consistency then this turns the specific application of mechanics more arcane and arbitrary.

Decide whether you want ALL AoE on X unit abilities to only affect the same domain as the unit with the ability or if you want ALL AoE on X abilities, including improvements, affected. Touching only legions AoE on Fortify turns the larger mechanic set into nonsense.

 

[Stalker0]

AoE of Fortify is part of a larger group of aoe damage effects that units have, and more broadly that units and improvements have.

There is:
AoE On Attack (splash)

I mean there is definitely a difference between a roman legion somehow hitting boats and an artillery piece with wide ranging ballistics hitting both land and sea at the same time.

 

[azum4roll]

Same thing in the code. There's nothing distinguishing AoE on Fortify and AoE on Kill etc. in the function either.

 

[axatin]

MAGI: @usadefcon1 Please add a description of the current properties of Pilum in the proposal text.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I first liked the proposal for thematic reasons. But not for gameplay. It does not make Rome too strong keeping it and it would be handled differently from other AOE abilities. And having it hit ships is bot only good for defense, but also when you attack a city and your frontline infantry is attacked by ranged ships.

Theme-wise, I reconsidered after thinking some more. The real pilum was not only used when inside field fortifications, but also during normal infantry warfare. On offense and defense. It was more like the Impi spear throw AFAIK. The pilum ability depicts not so much the real pilum thrown on the move, but a number of ranged options a legion had when inside field fortifications or during sieges (as attacker and defender). That would of course include the actual pilum (but more of them than when on the move) and also small field catapults (scorpions). The latter differ from heavier catapults represented by the ballista. Pila and Scorpions, coupled with Rome's superior logistics (translating into more available ammunition) could be seen as what the pilum ability represents. And scorpions can hit ships, but at a shorter range than bigger catapults.

 

[Rekk]

The pilum ability depicts not so much the real pilum thrown on the move, but a number of ranged options a legion had when inside field fortifications or during sieges (as attacker and defender). That would of course include the actual pilum (but more of them than when on the move) and also small field catapults (scorpions). The latter differ from heavier catapults represented by the ballista. Pila and Scorpions, coupled with Rome's superior logistics (translating into more available ammunition) could be seen as what the pilum ability represents. And scorpions can hit ships, but at a shorter range than bigger

This is why I've been suggesting renaming the promotion to Castra Aestiva, which references the mobile fortification, and how they work like a citadel.

 

[Stalker0]

PROPOSAL FAILED DUE TO LACK OF SPONSORSHIP