[Complex] (6-76) Revival of "Borrowing" Gold Deals from DoF Civs + Ask For Gold From City-States With Positive Influence

[Xaviarlol]

Problem
There are limited ways of getting emergency lump-sum gold in the game (for example when you desperately need it for buying units in a surprise war), and VP mod previously disallowed lump sum gold deals to be combined with gold-per-turn on the other side (this was functionality present in vanilla). This essentially allowed for "borrowing" lump sum gold from allies/friends in exchange for GPT that was usually higher than the lump sum, which simulated Interest payments.

Proposal
Allow Lump sum for GPT deals for declared friends. Set base "interest" at 20%, which gets lower based on your relationship (DoF with defensive pact is 10% interest). So if you borrow 100 gold on a deal that lasts 20 turns, the acceptable base GPT the AI civ will accept is 5GPT + 20% = 6 GPT.

Furthermore, I propose to allow major civs to ask for gold from city states they have influence with, in exchange for losing influence. This would essentially use the "demand tribute" mechanic, so the coding of this is not as difficult as it would seem. Each point of influence grants 4 gold, and you can ask for a "big" gift for 60 influence, which is 240 gold (equivalent of big tribute) or a small gift for 30 influence 120 gold (equivalent of small tribute). This would move under the "ask for tribute" UI in the city state panel, as two new options on top of the 2 existing tribute elements. You can only use positive influence above your resting state to ask for gold.

Reasoning
Gold borrowing is both logical and a desperately needed mechanic that is missing from VP. There are moments when you are in desperate need of gold, and one cannot rely on gifts from friendly Civs. This functionality allows for something that was already in the base game that I feel solves some issues and allows for interesting economic dynamics and adds more meaningful reasons to have good relations with other civs.

Complex Proposal: DLL + UI + Database Changes

 

[rkkn]

this sounds like an interesting and fun idea. However, I think the interest rate should be higher. We don't want this borrowing to be something that you just always do as much as possible whether it's an emergency or not.

Half a market costs 110 gold. If it were possible to buy outright that would be 220 gold. Since it gives +3 gold, it takes 73 turns to recoup your investment. So that means gold doubles in value in 73 turns. Market gives more benefits than that flat +3 gold, however, with the merchant slot, bonuses to trade routes, and potentially also bonuses to other resources or boost from a pantheon. But these other benefits are part of the skill in playing the game, so they should be undervalued for the purpose of getting a baseline interest rate. If spending 220 gold gets you +4 gold, that's 55 turns for gold to double in value. Then converting that to a 20 turn deal means a 28.7% interest rate. But since we want this to be a bad idea to do for non-emergencies, it should be higher than this. Perhaps 40%.

This is also all for standard speed. Interest rates would need to be different for different game speeds.

 

[Xaviarlol]

this sounds like an interesting and fun idea. However, I think the interest rate should be higher. We don't want this borrowing to be something that you just always do as much as possible whether it's an emergency or not.

Half a market costs 110 gold. If it were possible to buy outright that would be 220 gold. Since it gives +3 gold, it takes 73 turns to recoup your investment. So that means gold doubles in value in 73 turns. Market gives more benefits than that flat +3 gold, however, with the merchant slot, bonuses to trade routes, and potentially also bonuses to other resources or boost from a pantheon. But these other benefits are part of the skill in playing the game, so they should be undervalued for the purpose of getting a baseline interest rate. If spending 220 gold gets you +4 gold, that's 55 turns for gold to double in value. Then converting that to a 20 turn deal means a 28.7% interest rate. But since we want this to be a bad idea to do for non-emergencies, it should be higher than this. Perhaps 40%.

This is also all for standard speed. Interest rates would need to be different for different game speeds.

Great point, yes the 20% rate I included was just a ballpark and I agree based on your reasoning that it should be more like 40%.

 

[Recursive]

Problem
There are limited ways of getting emergency lump-sum gold in the game (for example when you desperately need it for buying units in a surprise war), and VP mod previously disallowed lump sum gold deals to be combined with gold-per-turn on the other side (this was functionality present in vanilla). This essentially allowed for "borrowing" lump sum gold from allies/friends in exchange for GPT that was usually higher than the lump sum, which simulated Interest payments.

Proposal
Allow Lump sum for GPT deals for declared friends. Set base "interest" at 20%, which gets lower based on your relationship (DoF with defensive pact is 10% interest). So if you borrow 100 gold on a deal that lasts 20 turns, the acceptable base GPT the AI civ will accept is 5GPT + 20% = 6 GPT.

Furthermore, I propose to allow major civs to ask for gold from city states they have influence with, in exchange for losing influence. This would essentially use the "demand tribute" mechanic, so the coding of this is not as difficult as it would seem. Each point of influence grants 4 gold, and you can ask for a "big" gift for 60 influence, which is 240 gold (equivalent of big tribute) or a small gift for 30 influence 120 gold (equivalent of small tribute). This would move under the "ask for tribute" UI in the city state panel, as two new options on top of the 2 existing tribute elements. You can only use positive influence above your resting state to ask for gold.

Reasoning
Gold borrowing is both logical and a desperately needed mechanic that is missing from VP. There are moments when you are in desperate need of gold, and one cannot rely on gifts from friendly Civs. This functionality allows for something that was already in the base game that I feel solves some issues and allows for interesting economic dynamics and adds more meaningful reasons to have good relations with other civs.

The AI would have to be taught to use this, which is actually fairly complicated. Also, Influence resting point can be a negative value.

 

[azum4roll]

You can always make multiple deals of 50 gold for 1 GPT to complete bypass the interest at the current rate.

 

[rkkn]

You can always make multiple deals of 50 gold for 1 GPT to complete bypass the interest at the current rate.

With the current proposal it's a 20 turn term with a 20% interest rate, so if you offer 1 gpt you get 16 gold

 

[azum4roll]

Trade deals can't be of a different duration.

 

[rkkn]

Trade deals can't be of a different duration.

but peace and war deals are 10/15 turns?

though iirc the gpt in a peace or war deal is still valued as though the deal would last 50 turns even though it does not. So is this just bugged?

 

[Anarcomu]

but peace and war deals are 10/15 turns?

though iirc the gpt in a peace or war deal is still valued as though the deal would last 50 turns even though it does not. So is this just bugged?

Pretty sure the GPT/resource part of the deal still stand past the 10 turns of peace. At least I remember it working in vanilla (making me reconsider war if I had a favorable deal)

 

[rkkn]

even if war is re-declared? that cancels deals doesn't it?

I suppose that's fine in surrender deals, since it's the losing side that offers gpt, so if they offer gpt it gives the victor incentive to not re-declare war. The problem is 3rd party deals

 

[azum4roll]

The loser can declare war in order to stop paying for the peace deal. The winner can declare war but will lose the peace deal. It's fair for both sides if we assume the power ratio of the two parties is still the same.

 

[Anarcomu]

even if war is re-declared? that cancels deals doesn't it?

This is what I meant by "making me reconsider war if I had a favorable deal".
You may not want to re-declare whenever you can, because you would loose on that deal, as azum4roll pointed out.

 

[rkkn]

I seem to remember getting shafted on a 3rd party peace or war deal like a year ago. I can't remember the details though. Is there some way those can get cancelled? aside from war with said 3rd party

though regardless it isn't relevant to this proposal. So deals have to be 50 turns, huh. That makes things more difficult, since 50 turns is plenty of time for relationships to change

 

[azum4roll]

At least it's not the 100 turns in Marathon.