Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-43-espionage-system-overhaul.685902/
Out of the systems proposed thus far, I like azum4roll's the most as I want to keep advanced actions and spies being powerful. However, I don't like a few aspects of the proposed system, so I decided to propose some tweaks.
I propose everything that @azum4roll's proposal contains, except for the elements quoted below, which are modified:
I propose to exclude stealing technology from the missions subject to a cooldown in that city. This mission doesn't directly harm the city owner, and it makes sure the spy owner (unless there are no techs to steal) has something to do with their spy.
However, it still triggers the cooldown for that spy.
Add the following Security modifiers:
Settler difficulty: +20
Chieftain difficulty: +10
Players on lower difficulty levels will likely be targeted by spies more often due to being in the lead, and players still learning the game should get a buff to their Security as a result.
Instead, increase the sapped turns to 5 (blockaded, +20% damage taken, can't heal, can't ranged strike). This makes it last for most of a lategame siege, and a good chunk of a midgame siege. Considering there's an entire counterspy mission devoted to blocking this mission, at least in part, I don't think this is too overpowered, as it still leaves the city with a fighting chance if units can defend it, and its CS still takes effect.
3 + Era number Barbarian units means 10 in Information Era, and 6 in Renaissance Era. Given the AI's strong bonuses VS Barbarians, a lot of units are needed to make a difference.
I propose a slight tweak to 5 + Era number Barbarians.
I find the Tourism penalty is too punishing (for Tall capitals that happen to be unhappy, which is pretty much never), and not very punishing otherwise. However, as it now shares a cooldown with the other two spy missions, it's fine, I guess. I originally proposed a cost reduction to 1000, but unhappy cities have a NP generation boost, and if this is part of a mutually exclusive group of 3, I feel like it would create weird incentives otherwise.
AMENDMENT 1: Changed my proposed replacement for the cooldown. Removed the proposed replacement for the steal gold mission.
AMENDMENT 2: Removed the cooldown replacement, as azum4roll has added it to his main proposal.
AMENDMENT 3: Added Security bonuses on the two lowest difficulties. Changed proposed adjustments to "Arm the local populace" quest (now only 3 -> 5 base Barbarian units).
AMENDMENT 4: Realized that stealing tech was not excluded from azum4roll's implementation of the mission countdown. This counterproposal now proposes to exclude it.
Out of the systems proposed thus far, I like azum4roll's the most as I want to keep advanced actions and spies being powerful. However, I don't like a few aspects of the proposed system, so I decided to propose some tweaks.
I propose everything that @azum4roll's proposal contains, except for the elements quoted below, which are modified:
Mission cooldowns:
Target city is blocked from being hit by the same spy mission for 15 turns once it's hit by one. The missions coloured in RED below also block each other.
The same spy is blocked from performing missions for 15 turns after performing one.
I propose to exclude stealing technology from the missions subject to a cooldown in that city. This mission doesn't directly harm the city owner, and it makes sure the spy owner (unless there are no techs to steal) has something to do with their spy.
However, it still triggers the cooldown for that spy.
Security formula:
Source Value Base 10 At least one player doesn't have spies +1000 England +15 Empiricism +12 Bletchley Park +10 global Public Works +5 each Piazza San Marco +10 Constabulary +15 Wat +20 Police Station +10 +1/ Population (+10 more with Police State) National Intelligence Agency +10 Great Firewall +50 Every time the city is hit by a spy mission +2 (scaling with game speed, less on slower speed) Population -2 each Trade Routes from/to this city -1 each Excess Unhappiness -4 each
Add the following Security modifiers:
Settler difficulty: +20
Chieftain difficulty: +10
Players on lower difficulty levels will likely be targeted by spies more often due to being in the lead, and players still learning the game should get a buff to their Security as a result.
Negating building defense for 3 turns is too overpowered, especially in the capital. While garrisons do help, ranged and aerial bombardment can reduce a city to 0 HP too easily. Especially if the garrison is killed; notably, there is another proposal to make garrisons easier to destroy.
Target city defense "Strengthen local defenses" mission not active All Fortifications owned by this city are pillaged.
City is blockaded, cannot perform ranged strike or benefit from extra strength from buildings for 3 turns.1500 80% 70%
Instead, increase the sapped turns to 5 (blockaded, +20% damage taken, can't heal, can't ranged strike). This makes it last for most of a lategame siege, and a good chunk of a midgame siege. Considering there's an entire counterspy mission devoted to blocking this mission, at least in part, I don't think this is too overpowered, as it still leaves the city with a fighting chance if units can defend it, and its CS still takes effect.
Name | Prerequisite | Effect | Network Point cost | Identify chance | Caught chance |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Target city defense | "Strengthen local defenses" counterspy mission not active | All Fortifications owned by this city are pillaged. City is blockaded and cannot perform ranged strikes for 5 turns. (Blockaded effects are: +20% damage taken, city can't heal, applies Isolation, breaks City Connection) | 1500 | 80% | 70% |
Arm the local populace Target city must be unhappy Target city enters resistance for 2 turns.
(3 + Era number) Rebel units spawn around the city.
No Tourism is generated in the city for 10 turns.1500 30% 30%
3 + Era number Barbarian units means 10 in Information Era, and 6 in Renaissance Era. Given the AI's strong bonuses VS Barbarians, a lot of units are needed to make a difference.
I propose a slight tweak to 5 + Era number Barbarians.
I find the Tourism penalty is too punishing (for Tall capitals that happen to be unhappy, which is pretty much never), and not very punishing otherwise. However, as it now shares a cooldown with the other two spy missions, it's fine, I guess. I originally proposed a cost reduction to 1000, but unhappy cities have a NP generation boost, and if this is part of a mutually exclusive group of 3, I feel like it would create weird incentives otherwise.
Name | Prerequisite | Effect | Network Point cost | Identify chance | Caught chance |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arm the local populace | Target city must be unhappy | Target city enters Resistance for 2 turns. (5 + Era number) Barbarian units spawn around the city. No Tourism is generated in the city for 10 turns. | 1500 | 30% | 30% |
AMENDMENT 1: Changed my proposed replacement for the cooldown. Removed the proposed replacement for the steal gold mission.
AMENDMENT 2: Removed the cooldown replacement, as azum4roll has added it to his main proposal.
AMENDMENT 3: Added Security bonuses on the two lowest difficulties. Changed proposed adjustments to "Arm the local populace" quest (now only 3 -> 5 base Barbarian units).
AMENDMENT 4: Realized that stealing tech was not excluded from azum4roll's implementation of the mission countdown. This counterproposal now proposes to exclude it.
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