(7-25a) Carthage Gets More Trade Routes

[Rekk]

Counterproposal to:

(7-30) Polynesia UA and Carthage UA+UB rework

Problems: 1) Both Civs underperform in AI tests. (Especially Polynesia, but Carthage too dependent on map) 2) Carthage and Polynesia are different but have one thing in common – they have ability to use water tiles earlier than ordinary Civs. While it could be justified for Polynesia, it’s...

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and more specifically to:

(7-30a) Carthage and Polynesia UA reworks

Counterproposal to this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/7-30-polynesia-ua-and-carthage-ua-ub-rework.688923/ Rationale: Both of these civs have been doing poorly in test games, and are appear to be in need of some buffs. Polynesia: After much discussion, I have at last relented an...

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Current Carthage UA

+125 Gold when founding Cities, scaling with Era. Owned Coastal Cities receive a Lighthouse. Trade Route Resource Diversity modifier doubled.

Proposed Carthage UA

Gain a Cargo Ship after founding a Coastal City. Trade Route Resource Diversity modifier doubled. Purchased Units gain 5 experience, scaling with era.

Current Carthage UNW (Great Cothon):

Spoiler :

Available at Currency (two techs early)
Requires Market
Replaces East India Company
Cost: 140
Gold: +4

Receive an additional copy of all Luxury Resources around the City.
Incoming Trade Routes generate +5 Gold for the City, and +3 Gold for the Trade Route owner. (+1 additional)
+25% Resource Diversity Modifier for Trade Routes from this City.
All Harbors gain +3 Production, and all Lighthouses gain +2 Culture.
Gain 2 Additional Trade Routes.

-2 Unhappiness from Poverty in this City (up from 1), and -1 in all other Cities.
The Production Cost increases based in the number of Cities you own (no Population requirement).

Harbor bonuses:

Spoiler :

+1
+150 HP
+2 War Supply
+15% when building naval units
+50% sea trade route length and +2
When a Sea Trade Route originating here and targeting another Civ is completed, receive a Tourism boost with the Civ based on your culture output
+1 to coast and ocean tiles
+1 to sea resources
Can buy Cargo ships with

Proposed Carthage UNW (Great Cothon):
Available at Currency (two techs early)
Coastal Only
Replaces East India Company
Cost: 140
Gold: +4

Receive an additional copy of all Luxury Resources around the City, and 3 Cargo Ships in the City.
All Owned Cities gain a free Harbor.
Incoming Trade Routes generate +5 Gold for the City, and +3 Gold for the Trade Route owner. (+1 additional)
+25% Resource Diversity Modifier for Trade Routes from this City.
All Harbors gain +3 Production, and all Lighthouses gain +2 Culture.
Gain 3 Additional Trade Routes.

-2 Unhappiness from Poverty in this City (up from 1), and -1 in all other Cities.
The Production Cost increases based in the number of Cities you own (no Population requirement).

Polynesia Changes:

Spoiler :

Look somewhere else for your Polynesia changes.

Rationale:
Giving a cargo ship to each Carthaginian city leans into Carthage as a trade route civilization (as it already has bonuses for its trade routes) and keeps the settler rush intact. Conversely, it delays the immediate impact and extends the UA's active participation on the player throughout the game, and pushes them very hard into settling coast (and need to make sacrifices to settle inland for luxuries and defense). A cargo ship in classical is worth 140 or 250 , but takes quite some time to pay off and must also be protected from barbarians. With a trade ship and a granary/stone works, you can also remove isolation penalties from remote cities as needed while you tech towards lighthouses. Raze/Resettle also becomes something available to Carthage in the later game; it was never worth it for 125 era-scaled gold, but an additional trade route is a better trade. For reference, lighthouses cost 150 or 75 + 190 and 1 maintenance, but it's assumed that the free harbours on the UNW are a replacement for this.

To make the most out of the improved Resource Diversity, the civilization wants to settle cities with high resource density/variety, which creates some tension compared to just settling as many cities as it can (tanking happiness in the process). In addition, it focuses the civ outward, making it more difficult to protect said trade routes. Finally, it improves the gains from those trade routes, and provides a fallback when they inevitably start getting pillaged. The civilization wants to get a a good return on those bonus routes by that point.

Carthage now also has an additional gold sink in that it is worth purchasing units over the entire game. Carthage still doesn't have military bonuses outside of its UU, so this is more of a defensive bonus without investment into agressive global options.

Building	XP after Purchase	Level after Purchase	XP after Build	Level After Build	XP after Purchase (Carthage UA)	Level After Purchase ( CarthageUA)
Ancient	0	1	0	1	5	1
Ancient (Barracks)	7.5	1	15	2 (req 10xp)	7.5+5 = 12.5	2 (req 10xp)
Classical	7.5	1	15	2	7.5+5 = 12.5	2
Medieval	7.5	1	15	2	7.5+10 = 17.5	2
Medieval (Armory)	17.5	2 (req 10xp)	35	3 (req 30xp)	17.5+10 = 27.5	2
Renaissance	17.5	2	35	3	17.5+15 = 32.5	3 (req 30xp)
Industrial	17.5	2	35	3	17.5+20 = 37.5	3
Industrial (Military Academy)	30	3 (req 30xp)	60	4 (req 60xp)	30+20 = 50	3
Modern	30	3	60	4	30+25 = 55	3
Atomic	30	3	60	4	30+30 = 60	4 (req 60xp)
Information	30	3	60	4	30+35 = 65	4

Notes:
XP is stored up to 2 decimal places.
There are additional options that the player can take to increase XP in addition to this.
Teocalli (classical?) adds an additional 15/7.5 XP
Brandenburg (Industrial) adds an additional 15/7.5 XP
Elite forces (autocracy) adds an additional 15/7.5 XP
Mercenary units (medieval/industrial/atomic) get full XP on gold purchase
Draft registration (freedom, tier 1) eliminates the XP penalty for all gold purchases


edit: formatting, grammar
addendum: removed bonus trade routes, reduced bonus purchase XP, removed resource diversity from UA and put a weakened version on the UNW, UNW gains another trade route and 3 cargo ships.
addendum 2: reverted resource diversity change. UA receives double as current, UNW receives 25% as current. UNW must be in a coastal city.


MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and database changes

 

[rkkn]

+1 trade route per city, and free cargo ship, looks extremely interesting!
Also strikes me as extremely powerful. like you would need to remove the free harbor on the UB and remove the other stuff from the UA.

also it might be kinda awkward for your first cargo ship to just be chillin until you find another coastal city, but I actually think it'd be pretty cool. it'd make finding a coastal city ASAP a priority.

 

[Rekk]

it'd make finding a coastal city ASAP a priority

or founding one

 

[hokath]

I think you would have to cap the +trade route UA bonus.
I can imagine on a larger map its quite easy to found 10--20 coastal cities. By the end game I could have 40 trade routes. Not only is that bonkers gold, it's also a huge amount of Tourism for the Cultural Victory.
Perhaps you cap it out at... +8? Not sure what's a good number

 

[rkkn]

I can imagine on a larger map its quite easy to found 10--20 coastal cities. By the end game I could have 40 trade routes. Not only is that bonkers gold, it's also a huge amount of Tourism for the Cultural Victory.

well if you have a huge number of cities, you also get a huge tourism penalty.

 

[pineappledan]

Holy Crap.

You are planning to remove the +2 Trade cap from Cothon on this... right?

Seems like a lot of extra TRs. Like more than Venice. AND way faster, because Venice's ability scales only on existing trade cap bonuses. AND Venice has to eat a massive tradeoff.

The initial expansion phase will make this Carthage flush with TRs.
You're also suggesting Carthage get a free trade route and cargo ship before Trade. Venice has to wait to unlock that tech to get its first extra TR slot.
This also means you will get your first trade route and trade unit before you even know what is around you. What if you spawned too far away from any CS or player to send a trade route? What if all your closest neighbours are inland? You would have to delete your free cargo ship and build a caravan before you can start sending TRs. Will the AI know to do that?
However, if you do get a good map roll and start within coastal range of another city you have a strong sub- turn 10 bonus and you wont even have to defend those TRs until 60% of players research fishing. In either case It's extremely variable.

Could you at least make this when settling non-capital cities? Then you are delaying the bonus off turn 1, after you have scouted a bit and can actually make an informed decision on city placement.

+8 XP when combined with mercenaries/Draft registration will get really hefty really fast. You're scaling more XP on Free Companies in medieval (35+16 = 51 XP) than what Assyria is probably getting. You're also scaling higher than Assyria outright; surpassing their +45XP cap in Atomic.
5XP is the right number, imo. It's compensatory for purchases in most eras without beating them outright, and doesn't scale out of hand with the penalty mitigations.

TL;DR - recommended changes:
- Remove +2 trade slots from Cothon
- Remove TR diversity modifier
- Free cargoship/trade slot when settling Non-Capital cities
- reduce purchased unit XP to 5, scaling with era

Even then, I think this is way too OP, but at least it's OP in a way that is not also going to create jank.

 

[Stalker0]

Jesus..1 tr per city…what is this beyond earth?

I think this would easily scale out of control, and create way too much work for a player.

 

[Rekk]

Jesus..1 tr per city…

to clarify, it's per settled coastal city.

 

[Stalker0]

to clarify, it's per coastal city.

correct....aka the cities that carthage would always make by default

why on god's green earth would I make anything else as carthage if its giving me free TRs?

 

[msw1]

This would be fun to play for sure but feels like it's stepping on Venice's toes. With Venice you only get one non-puppet city but the upshot is you get more trade routes than anyone else. Now it seems if Carthage just spammed coastal cities they could put Venice's trade network to shame.

 

[Stalker0]

This would be fun to play for sure but feels like it's stepping on Venice's toes. With Venice you only get one non-puppet city but the upshot is you get more trade routes than anyone else. Now it seems if Carthage just spammed coastal cities they could put Venice's trade network to shame.

part of it is also not just power, but the player's economy of actions. Venice has a lot of TRs to control, but not a lot of city management....so adding on that extra TR burden is totally fine. But adding in all of that TR management when you are already managing a wide empire is a lot of work!

The Brillance of the TR system (and why it utterly failed in Beyond Earth) is precisely because its limited. Each TR feels important and can come with certain solid benefits because it doesn't scale too much. I don't see a reason to open the floodgates on that.

 

[Tekamthi]

I think I would do a lot more razing than I normally would with this Carthage. Probably needs some additional constraint... Only cities in ancient and classical count for more TR or something.

Otherwise I'm gonna spend the whole game razing all the coasts for 100 TR end game

Does sound like fun gameplay on some level though

What happens if Carthage loses some of its founded cities? Does tr # reduce?

Edit: perhaps what you could do is every razed city cancels out one founded city for the bonus tr purposes

 

[Rekk]

Addendum:
- removed bonus trade routes
- reduced bonus purchase XP
- removed resource diversity from UA and put a weakened version on the UNW
- UNW gains 3 trade routes and 3 cargo ships.


The primary thing that interests me with my proposal is immediately receiving Cargo Ships to start trading with in the Ancient era. I also enjoy the resource diversity modifier. The rest is an attempt to extend bonuses further out into the game.

If we kill the bonus trade route completely and stick with the Cargo Ship on found, then Carthage's trade empire can go over the cap but is brittle and needs to defend those bonus routes with its life. This does come with the problem that the additional trade route techs don't do much and everyone catches up to Carthage unless it keeps settling.

Without the bonus trade route, then your first trade ship will sit while you wait to find someone to trade with, but there's no pressure to convert it into a caravan (...at trade...? you'll have built a granary and settled a second city by that point).

 

[Rekk]

What happens if Carthage loses some of its founded cities? Does tr # reduce?

it would have, yes.

 

[Tekamthi]

Well I enjoy civs with extra TR, currently play modded so naval TR gives double move... They become like ocean highways and can never get enough of em.

Anyway not a main branch VP concern, but some small amount of extra TR is (or was) somewhat appealing

 

[pineappledan]

note that you can run trade routes over your trade cap, you just can't build new trade units above your cap.

So if you lose cities, you won't lose trade routes until someone pillages them.

 

[Rekk]

Well I enjoy civs with extra TR, currently play modded so naval TR gives double move... They become like ocean highways and can never get enough of em.

Anyway not a main branch VP concern, but some small amount of extra TR is (or was) somewhat appealing

Cothon still gives (more) trade routes.

 

[Rekk]

note that you can run trade routes over your trade cap, you just can't build new trade units above your cap.

So if you lose cities, you won't lose trade routes until someone pillages them.

Correct, the primary fear is losing your Cargo Ships from being pillaged, not from losing a city.


I actually think the loss of the trade routes is enough to put (at least part of) the Resource Diversity Modifier back on the UA.

 

[hokath]

It's an interesting idea. One bad war could ruin your whole UA though, or even some particularly lairy barbarian spawns.
Perhaps you could also consider some additional (later game) triggers for the effect. E.g. Free Cargo Ship from Staring a Golden Age
Either way, it will be quite a brittle UA bonus.

 

[Rekk]

It's an interesting idea. One bad war could ruin your whole UA though, or even some particularly lairy barbarian spawns.
Perhaps you could also consider some additional (later game) triggers for the effect. E.g. Free Cargo Ship from Staring a Golden Age
Either way, it will be quite a brittle UA bonus.

Hmm. Could be something like "Gain a Cargo Ship in the Capital every 5th Technology"; that would capture Phoenecia's technological prowess.