[DLL] (7-NS) Embarked units lose movement points when starting next to enemy naval units

[Tekamthi]

yeah im lukewarm on the specifics here, but its an interesting idea; i do agree with OP that naval vs embarked feels a little lackluster in any case

 

[Rekk]

are we of the opinion that the AI can handle this these days? I still often see embarked units with no escort; going back to high naval vs embarked dmg will disproportionately limit AI

What makes you think that the AI will handle these new rules any better? Making it difficult for AI embarked units to move won't magically make them start being escorted.

 

[Tekamthi]

What makes you think that the AI will handle these new rules any better?

compared to a high dmg model, the slowing model proposed in OP, or some other slowing mechanism, suggests defender might have easier time stopping invading force, but not necessarily killing them quicker -- with the combat spread out over multiple turns, AI receives more cues to respond to, vs the cues it gets from just getting its units sunk in 1 turn -- it can react to some extent, but it cannot predict

 

[azum4roll]

I'd just plug a -50% embarked CS on the Embarkation promotion, if needed.

 

[Rekk]

I'd just plug a -50% embarked CS on the Embarkation promotion, if needed.

How did we change the combat mechanics that made embarked units more survivable?

 

[azum4roll]

How did we change the combat mechanics that made embarked units more survivable?

They didn't use to have full CS when embarked, but I don't know the exact formula.

 

[Rekk]

They didn't use to have full CS when embarked, but I don't know the exact formula.

The old calculation was as follows:

Embarked Strength = (Era Defense + Base Combat Strength * 0.2) * (1 + Embarked Defense Modifier)

where Era Defense is equal to:

Era	Defense
Ancient	3
Classical	4
Medieval	6
Renaissance	8
Industrial	10
Modern	13
Atomic	16
Information	20

Also, when we updated how embarked defense works, we updated it for CP too!

The theme of this is on point: The main strength of the unit comes from the ship that's carrying them (which gets upgraded every era), and the unit itself can only provide a minimal contribution to defense. The later eras, however, become biased towards the strength of the unit when they should actually be able to provide less and less contribution as technology improves.

 

[azum4roll]

So with the old formula, even a GDR won't survive for long in the water.

Current formula is much simpler and intuitive though, and anything "too strong" can be solved by giving them a negative embarked CS promotion.

 

[Rekk]

intuitive

Is it intuitive that a unit that can't attack and whose model is a bunch of transport ships is essentially as strong as the unit on land?

 

[pineappledan]

It's intuitive in that the CS that is posted on the unit is actually what the unit defends with, and not some arcane, hidden CS calc based on era-scaling values.

 

[Rekk]

It's intuitive in that the CS that is posted on the unit is actually what the unit defends with, and not some arcane, hidden CS calc based on era-scaling values.

It's not like the CS of the embarked unit is hidden from view.

 

[Stalker0]

Is this REALLY an issue? my ships still do plenty of damage to embarked units, and take none in return. sure I'm not one shotting them, but I've never once had units in the water next to enemy naval ships and thought "well this is fine".

and embarked units still get sniped by ranged attacks, I would never want to embark units near an enemy city without a naval ship on top of them.