[Complex] (7-NS) Instant production affects processes

[Revolutionist_8]

Proposal: City Processes convert instant production bonuses into their yield, equal to the conversion rate.
Amendment: Only exception being the Defense Process, which gives Golden Age Points equivalent to the conversion rate.

Example: City is running Culture conversion process, converting 25% of the City's Production into Culture. The City gets +100 instant bonus from a City-State quest, and the City (and therefore its owner) gains +25 extra

Rationale: instant production is wasted for Cities that are running Processes. It's not transparent, and it's unnecessarily nerfing players who choose to run these Processes (either for boosting that yield, or the City ran out from important things to build)

MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and database changes

 

[azum4roll]

What about the Defense process then?

 

[Zuizgond]

I like this proposal and also think the defense process should be removed (it's the only one that is not a yield generator and cities already have far too much defense)

 

[Tekamthi]

I like this proposal and also think the defense process should be removed (it's the only one that is not a yield generator and cities already have far too much defense)

I think I kinda like this but also not -- it's not the defense process itself that is important mechanism, but that it gives defender an option to divert production into defense at times of need, and thus gives the attacker another means of diminishing the economy without full capture etc.

I think it could be improved though -- until then I'd lean towards keeping it.

As far as OP goes the problem and probably deal breaker is that this instant yield will encourage player to switch to process each time an instant yield is anticipated then switch back. This micro will be horrible to play especially when instant yields are frequent, and the AI will probably never fully grasp it.

Better solution would be just to stockpile the infant yields for whenever player next switches to non-process

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Amendment: added exception for Defense process, it gives Golden Age Points equal to the conversion rate.

Edit: not perfect, as it overlaps with Enginseer's Bare Necessities modmod, so please feel free for counterproposals

 

[Revolutionist_8]

What about the Defense process then?

That's a very good point, thank you!

As far as OP goes the problem and probably deal breaker is that this instant yield will encourage player to switch to process each time an instant yield is anticipated then switch back. This micro will be horrible to play especially when instant yields are frequent, and the AI will probably never fully grasp it.

Better solution would be just to stockpile the infant yields for whenever player next switches to non-process

Why would you switch? We can assume what you're building now is important. I feel it's the opposite and what I want to achieve is literally the opposite: you run processes, and you don't have to switch to a random building / unit that you don't want to build right now, but you also don't want to waste the instant production, because that's feel punishing and unfun.

That's also an interesting idea. I sense some possible exploit with Wonders and not sure how it would look like on the UI, but maybe worth a counterproposal, what do you think?

 

[Tekamthi]

Why would you switch?

Am I overlooking something? You trade 1 turn of say building yields, which are incremental in nature, for a large lump sum of the very yields you're after in the first place. I haven't done all the math of specific scenarios but I think generally delaying completion of the building for 1 turn to collect the instant payoff would be the premiere choice for the minmaxer (but maybe not).

The stockpile might indeed fit as counterproposal, it seems the problem you've identified is legit... Let's see where the discussion goes -- I think this will be one of those new DLL code initiatives, so maybe sponsors could provide some direction on what might work best

 

[Anarcomu]

I'm on the proposal side for it. If min-maxers just want to take whatever small amount of optimizations they can push, good for them. I don't think taking min-maxers into the equation is good, imo most people (including myself) won't want the bother for the small gain.
Btw, what about heal the city for Defense process ? Part of the process is CS, part is heal, it could work. Possibly it would be frustrating to see a city suddenly gaining health when besieging it, thought.
Or money, which can help buying military units. Somehow on theme.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Am I overlooking something? You trade 1 turn of say building yields, which are incremental in nature, for a large lump sum of the very yields you're after in the first place. I haven't done all the math of specific scenarios but I think generally delaying completion of the building for 1 turn to collect the instant payoff would be the premiere choice for the minmaxer (but maybe not).

The stockpile might indeed fit as counterproposal, it seems the problem you've identified is legit... Let's see where the discussion goes -- I think this will be one of those new DLL code initiatives, so maybe sponsors could provide some direction on what might work best

Hmmm, valid point. My thought process was that since you start running processes from mid- but especially from lategame, by that time those instant yields are not that huge to be worth switching off from an important building / wonder / unit, but I do agree that it's possible to min-max here, and it'd feel gamey, which is just not good.

Care to make a counterproposal? I think the issue must be solved somehow, but you've a good point, that my proposal is not the best solution.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I'm on the proposal side for it. If min-maxers just want to take whatever small amount of optimizations they can push, good for them. I don't think taking min-maxers into the equation is good, imo most people (including myself) won't want the bother for the small gain.
Btw, what about heal the city for Defense process ? Part of the process is CS, part is heal, it could work. Possibly it would be frustrating to see a city suddenly gaining health when besieging it, thought.
Or money, which can help buying military units. Somehow on theme.

I thought about Gold at first, but it'd overlap with Gold Process (which is not necessarily bad, just a remark ) Care to make a counterproposal, so people can decide what would they like to see better?

 

[Tekamthi]

Care to make a counterproposal?

I'll give it some thought; but in the meantime let's see if we can tune this idea up a little.

This is adding some complexity, but say it factored in how many turns the process was active for, and gave 10% per turn active. So the instant switcher is only gonna get a few yields and more in line with whatever they woulda got from just finishing the building 1 turn sooner. The long term process player on the other hand gets a nice payoff...

Some kind of condition to deter the instant switch seems necessary. The simpler the better

 

[msw1]

If we wanted to account for this I'd go for an even simpler approach with something like instant production is only added to processes after working the process for three turns. But honestly I don't think the minmaxing is that important. Say your borders expand with a filled out Authority tree and you get 40 production. If you were working a process now you get 10 of that yield on one turn. Is getting 10 of that yield enough to make me want to switch to a process on that turn? Probably not. Keep in mind that's 40 production towards whatever you were building before that you're now not getting.

 

[Tekamthi]

True re above, and just to correct myself from previous post, it's not actually 1 turn of building delay cuz of course the building would be done quicker without the switch... I was overlooking something after all. As I reflect here I think the minmaxing switch won't be such a big deal

 

[CppMaster]

I'd be against this convoluted logic for switching, because it'd be confusing. Let's do it without it and see how much it can be exploited. If not too much, then whatever, just keep it simple.

 

[rkkn]

Am I overlooking something? You trade 1 turn of say building yields, which are incremental in nature, for a large lump sum of the very yields you're after in the first place. I haven't done all the math of specific scenarios but I think generally delaying completion of the building for 1 turn to collect the instant payoff would be the premiere choice for the minmaxer (but maybe not).

if the instant production is better on a process than a building, then the per turn production is also better on the process. I don't see how it there could be any value difference here.

 

[Rekk]

Amendment: added exception for Defense process, it gives Golden Age Points equal to the conversion rate.

Edit: not perfect, as it overlaps with Enginseer's Bare Necessities modmod, so please feel free for counterproposals

Please no exceptions

 

[azum4roll]

I'm on the side of saving the instant production in a separate pool.

That may slightly encourage players to work processes, save up a large amount of instant production, and then complete wonders in one turn though.

 

[Stalker0]

For defense, I would just simply have it be the exception that no bonus is granted. I mean that's how defense works right now, I am "wasting" my production just to help my city hold out against a force. I shouldn't;'t receive any economic benefit from working defense, that's the point of defense.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

For defense, I would just simply have it be the exception that no bonus is granted. I mean that's how defense works right now, I am "wasting" my production just to help my city hold out against a force. I shouldn't;'t receive any economic benefit from working defense, that's the point of defense.

GAP from Defense:

• you're a good leader, who takes the defence of their populace seriously, therefore strengthening your prestige and national unity ("theming" aspect)
• a different yield (tangible reason 1)
• not feeling sad losing something (tangible reason 2 )

Your argument is reasonable tho, worth a counterproposal in my opinion.

 

[Rekk]

Or just have it count towards defense for that turn.