[Database] (7-NS) Maori Warrior rework

[pineappledan]

I wouldn't exactly call myself a Polynesia main, but this is my experience with 4UC Polynesia:

The MW's current bonuses basically make them a SR-free longsword. It's not much stronger than a normal longsword.

• As Polynesia I don't have as many problems with securing SRs for two reasons:
  • The deep sea settling and scouting bonuses mean I can secure iron and city-state allies that other civs can't reach
  • The deep sea and isolation bonuses also mean I tend to have a longer settling phase than I would with other civs, meaning I am less dependent on luck by discovering iron near already-settled cities
• Polynesia hugs the coast and most border tensions happen inland, so I tend to need medieval military units less than when playing other civs.

Because of these factors I find I don't build or use many MWs, but I do build and use Koas. If MW were moved to Scout I would expect that I would use them more often.

curious would an amphibious unit with hakka provide the penalty to naval ships, or would it still only work for land units?

I'm not aware of any interaction between amphibious and the adjacent combat aura. It works however feared elephant does, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't check domain.

An alternative to Amphibious would be to give the MW frogman, but I think that's probably too good, and too much overlap with Denmark in the early game.

 

[Yngwie]

Perhaps I write a counterproposal?

"So what can I say except you're welcome"

Any counterproposals is great)

 

[azum4roll]

• The deep sea settling and scouting bonuses mean I can secure iron and city-state allies that other civs can't reach
• The deep sea and isolation bonuses also mean I tend to have a longer settling phase than I would with other civs, meaning I am less dependent on luck by discovering iron near already-settled cities

As Polynesia, you want to always maximize your Moai placements when settling. Which could mean sometimes giving up on improving coastal Iron, or not settling for very inland Iron deposits. I see that as the reason of keeping Maori Warrior Iron-free.

Polynesia hugs the coast and most border tensions happen inland, so I tend to need medieval military units less than when playing other civs.

This, however, is a valid concern. Polynesia would much prefer having a naval UU over a land one, or in general something that can fight well near the coast. No, the era doesn't matter here, and making it a recon unit (that can do combat for like one tech tier) doesn't solve anything.

It works however feared elephant does, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't check domain.

It does, and also stops working while embarked.

 

[Tekamthi]

Polynesia would much prefer having a naval UU over a land one, or in general something that can fight well near the coast.

I think the is a thematic problem with naval uu in that the western recorded histories seem to suggest strongly that naval combat was not really their thing. It is also an asset problem in that we have collectively already used all available naval models, unless they are given a balsa raft, which I think only fits as an early ancient era unit if at all. Do we have active modders with 3d model skills? That would change things here somewhat, but the thematic concern remains.

Better to have them experts of coastal warfare, but as pd has pointed out previously, there are already Danes with coastal warfare kit and we don't want to just copy their stuff.

I've mentioned this angle already, will try not to be broken record on this, but if we could get dev buy-in to train AI, the "change port" ability would be the perfect function for Polynesia UU -- their kit already encourages far flung island colonies, and are disadvantaged on defense in this regard. We get them even just a unique scout, with all the shortcomings of a recon uu, but one that can very quickly island hop.... It all aligns: playstyle, thematic aspects, strategic/tactical utility...

 

[azum4roll]

We get them even just a unique scout, with all the shortcomings of a recon uu, but one that can very quickly island hop.... It all aligns: playstyle, thematic aspects, strategic/tactical utility...

But what's its use case other than scouting? It surely can't be used in combat. Island hop to a city near the enemy and... go around them and pillage their land?

Why does it HAVE to be a recon unit?

 

[ma_kuh]

I know when I play Polynesia I really hate using warriors to explore because it eats up a lot of recon XP. I think recon XP is the main culprit in this regard, but as long as it exists this will be a feels-bad situation.

Maybe Polynesian units ALL could get the recon-reveal XP, that would be pretty unique, and make it feel less bad to use the early embarkation for non-recon exploration.

Last thing, I like that a unique Scout specifically means beelining Sailing feels better. There always feels like an awkwardness between wanting Fishing for the boats, but the embarkation is completely wasted, and then Sailing for lighthouses but the city connections are completely wasted. For a civ that historically feels like they should be rushing Sailing, it's a pretty mixed bag.

 

[pineappledan]

If discussing the scout replacement idea, you should do that in the relevant counterproposal:

(7-08a) Maori Warrior Scout replacement

Current Maori Warrior (Longswordsman) 22 CS :c5strength: cheaper Does not require Iron Unlocks at Chivalry Haka War Dance (-15% :c5strength: CS to adjacent enemy units) Proposal Maori Warrior (Scout) Unlocks at Sailing 90:c5production: 13:c5strength:CS (+3) No Movement Penalties Treasure Hunter...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Tekamthi]

But what's its use case other than scouting? It surely can't be used in combat. Island hop to a city near the enemy and... go around them and pillage their land?

Why does it HAVE to be a recon unit?

I have MUC koa in mind specifically... It's a very powerful recon! With survivalism especially it can very much hold it's own on the classical battlefield. The debuff it applies is deceptively strong, and often fools even the combat sim tooltip.

It certainly doesn't have to be a recon but I'll at least vouch subjectively that the muc implementation has a good overall vibe. I'm not Polynesia main but it is in my current rotation shortlist, in human hands the unique scout is fun and capable. Where it really stands out is not so much the unit itself but how they can be acquired, in fact situationally it can be almost OP, maybe verges on exploit: with plentiful island ruins (on huge communitas for example) it's easy to get multiple unique scouts while everyone else still in the first tier of ancient tech, I had 3 unique scouts while everyone else still had warriors in a recent game. Recon with turn 0 ocean crossing gets more ruins than others -> Ruins give gold and unit upgrades -> gold buys more recon with ocean crossing ability when most can't even embark at all -> more recon gives more ruins -> more ruins gives even more gold -> ever more gold gives even more recon and upgrades -> upgraded recon into UU can clear camps solo, for even MORE gold and also quest rewards... You can legit do a late found, catch up from all the bonus yields, get a full supply compliment of classical UU while opponents are pushing out their first or second Spearman. Two survivalism koa handle a Spearman easily, nevermind 6. Pretty much one shot the slingers zero to death, and archers to retreat. Once a few of these get the heal every turn promo they're nigh unstoppable.

If ancient ruins no longer did upgrades, Polynesia and the unique scout case would change significantly, so that's something to keep in mind this round too

If discussing the scout replacement idea, you should do that in the relevant counterproposal:

(7-08a) Maori Warrior Scout replacement

Current Maori Warrior (Longswordsman) 22 CS :c5strength: cheaper Does not require Iron Unlocks at Chivalry Haka War Dance (-15% :c5strength: CS to adjacent enemy units) Proposal Maori Warrior (Scout) Unlocks at Sailing 90:c5production: 13:c5strength:CS (+3) No Movement Penalties Treasure Hunter...

forums.civfanatics.com

I just hit reply on the notification without checking what thread I was in, oops