A Flexible Government?

[ravensfire]

Wow, just what I had been thinking in my mind. A semi-changed DGVII, with a bit of my proposal - pretty nice, I think it would work.

Thanks!

Maybe we could also throw in a 'Foreign Advisor' as one of the pre-defined positions. It will be needed pretty much throughout the game, give or take the first 30 turns.

I thought about that, but I figured that with it not being needed immediately, let's leave it out, and let the system work during the first term. That way, if there are issues, we can hammer them out early on.

Just some formatting problems (Section D isn't bolded, Section I doesn't have a "-" in the heading.)

Nice catch - thanks!

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

I think we should have a foreign affairs advisor and an interior advisor to start with...
Thats because at the beginning of the game, do we really need a military advisor to decide where to scout? So the military advisor can be created as needed

Well, that's kinda the job of the Military, right? I suspect that the Military would have things to do well before the FA would.

Also I was thinking that a minister should create the position under them...
For example, if we think there is a need for a Technology and Trade Minister, the Interior Minister can declare that position... This is because the Interior minister should have some control over that person

I like to keep things straightforward, so if we have just one person managing the create/delete of offices, it's an easier system.

Which reminds me, I need to clarify the "Remove an Office" stuff (official must agree if the Pres decides, or poll via citizens), plus add the Citizen's Initiative section (got a GREAT idea for that). BUT, I won't be doing another version unless Flex somehow comes from behind and wins in the poll. If it doesn't, I get to kick back and relax, and let the Tri supporters finish off their set.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Ravensfire, it'd be great if you could come up with a 'finalized' version of the Flex govt., if we are shooting for our January 1st starting date (proposal for timetable in the thread).

 

[Octavian X]

For the sake of continuing the discussion, as I hope such a type of government is created in place of the Triumvirate through legal channels, here's my own proposal.

I borrowed some of ravensfire's stuff from the previous page of this discussion, though incorperated my own ideas.

Of note:
The President has been relieved of all duties in game, and in this proposal occupies a position similar to that of the Censor of the Triumviriate. Ministers of Domestic Affairs, Foregin Affairs, and Defense are all used for in-game stuff, while governors (for ease of definition for below) were moved into the Executive.

All members of the executive can delegate their authority to lower offices that they may create and fill, though the Assembly may do the same.

I also tried to work aspects of the Power of the People section of the Constitution in this draft. References to Initiative, Referendum, and Recall should be checked against their definitions in the Constitution.

I also tried to truncate the possibly endless runoff procedure. One runoff only - after that, things are decided by chance.

A. Government Structure
The government will consist of the Executive, Legislative, and Judical Branches.

B. The Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch of government shall consist of the Citizen’s Assembly. The Assembly consists of all Citizens of the nation.

All decision-making power is derived from the Assembly, which represents the collective will of the nation. This collective will must be defined through the Power of the People as defined in Article C of the Constitution.

C. The Executive Branch
The Executive Branch shall consist of the President, the Minister of Domestic Affairs, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense, and the Governors of the Provinces. Persons holding these offices may be referred to as ‘Executive Officers.’

The President shall preside over the Citizen’s Assembly. He shall be responsible for managing and validating elections, as well as validating polls as meeting the requirements of a Referendum, Initiative, or Recall. The President must create and follow Procedures for these operations, to which he must abide for his term.

The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for worker allocation, city placement, taxation, research, culture, Civic adjustment, religion, Great People, Wonder and Team Project construction, and other related affairs. The Minister is also responsible for cities without a Governor.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for all matters pertaining to foreign Civilizations, including trade and other diplomatic agreements.

The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for the control of all units under the jurisdiction of the nation, excluding settlers, workers, and Great People.

The Governors shall be responsible for one province each. Individual Governors are responsible for the care and management of all cities within their assigned provincial borders (excluding Wonder and Team Project construction, which must be assigned by the Minister of Domestic Affairs).

All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority, to which they may appoint or recall Citizens as they please. The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the creating official. These lower offices may be created, filled and closed via an Initiative of the Citizen’s Assembly. All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly. Lower Offices created by the Assembly may not be closed by the Executive Officer to which the lower office is responsible, while the Assembly may close lower offices created by an Executive Officer. Irregardless of their origins, all lower offices shall close at the end of term during which they were created.

D. Elections
The President shall be the chief officer in charge of elections. He and other relevant appointed officials must act in a fair and unbiased manner.

The regular election cycle starts at the posting of the nomination threads, and concludes when the last poll, including runoff polls, closes. Nomination threads will be posted 8 days before the end of the current term. Election polls will be posted 4 days later, and will list all accepted candidates for each election. Election polls will be marked private, and last for 3 days.

A citizen may only run for a single office during a regular election cycle.

Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more front runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days. Should this runoff poll also result in a tie between two or more front runners, the election shall be decided by a fair game of chance (for example, a coin flip or a random number generator) agreed upon by all involved candidates, and conducted by the newly-elected President. Should the Presidency be at stake in the runoff, the game of chance shall be conducted by a citizen agreed upon by the candidates.

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.

E. Designated Player (DP) Pool
During each regular election cycle, a separate thread will be created during the nomination process for DP Candidates. Any citizen that wishes to be a DP must post in this thread. When the election polls are posted, a separate poll, in multi-choice format, listing each candidate will be posted. Citizens will vote their approval for a candidate by selecting their name.

A citizen may run for an elected office and apply to be a DP in the same term. The DP Pool does not count as an elected office.

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The President will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used. All DPs that actually ran a game session in the previous term will be put below those that did not, regardless of the number of votes. This list will determine the order that the DPs will be used for game sessions. If there are more game sessions than DPs, start again from the top of the list.

Should the DP pool be empty, the President is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen of the nation to serve as DP.

Members of the DP pool may exchange places as they desire, so long as all citizens involved agree.

F. Deputies
All Executive Officers will have a deputy. The Deputy is permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed by the elected official, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Game Session, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office.

The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice is absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent.

If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tem members to the other seats, with Presidential approval.

In the event of absence by all three members of the Judiciary, the President may fill all offices with pro-tem members.

G. Vacancies
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must offer the appointment to that citizen. The appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a Recall poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

If an elected official does not post in the Democracy Game forums in 4 days without prior notice, any citizen may request the Judiciary to investigate. The Judiciary, by a majority vote, may declare the office Vacant at the conclusion of the investigation.

H. Polling Standards

The initial post should contain a link to all relevant discussion threads, and should define the poll as either an Initiative or Referendum. Each option should be explained if not immediately clear. The question and answers of the poll must be unbiased. The time frame for the poll, and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post.

All Initiative and Referendum polls must be open for a minimum of 24 hours to be binding. They are strongly encouraged to be open for at least 3 days. They must be flagged as "Public" unless directly concerning another Citizen.

Should a citizen question the validity of an Initiative or Referendum, the President shall judge the qualifications of the poll. Should all qualifications be met, the President shall validate the result. Should some requirement be lacking, the President shall invalidate the poll, and its decision will be considered that of an Opinion Poll and therefore not binding.

I. Recalls
Any citizen may create a thread requesting the recall of a specific official. This post must include the reason the recall is requested. Should two additional citizens post in that thread supporting the recall within 24 hours of the initial post, the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the recall is for the Chief Justice) must create a Recall poll.

Additionally, an individual citizen may post a Recall poll 24 hours after the President has appointed a citizen to a vacant office.

This is a private poll, asking in Yes/No/Abstain format if the elected official should be removed from office. This poll should run for 4 days.

If 60% of the citizens voting support the recall, ignoring abstain, and the total number of votes is greater than 1/2 of the census, the citizen is removed from office, and the office is declared Vacant.

A Recall may be requested no sooner than 7 days after a previous attempt in the same term on the same official.

J. Game Sessions

All irreversible game actions must progress during a game session, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline. During each session, the designated player must provide a log of their actions in sufficient detail to replicate their actions.

A Game Session Instruction Thread must be created at least 2 days before the chat by the Designated Player for that session. Should a thread not be created in a timely manner, the President may create one. Game Sessions must be at least 3 days apart, no more than 7 days apart. The initial post should contain the date and time of the game session, a link to the save to be used for that session, and if the game session will be on-line or off-line. If the game session is off-line, a citizen may post a confirmation poll for that session. If the confirmation poll fails, the DP must reschedule the game session as an on-line session.

All official instructions must be posted in the current game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are clearly noted. Officials that do not post instructions for a game session are considered to have given the DP complete control over their area for that game session.

The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of Trade and Technology, in that order.

K. Freedom of Information
All elected officials will create an official thread. This thread will be used to provide updates to the citizens about their office. The information in this thread should updated frequently in order to accurately reflect the current game situation.

L. Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

Amendments must pass Judicial Review. If accepted, the Judiciary will post the poll. This poll will be open for 3 days, state the new text and the current text. To pass, an amendment must have a majority of positive votes, ignoring Abstain.

 

[RegentMan]

I also tried to truncate the possibly endless runoff procedure. One runoff only - after that, things are decided by chance.

That wouldn't work. The president would have his own opinion on who should win, and could claim that person won the coin flip. I suggest that we continue with the runoff polls.

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.

Technically, the first term would never end, as its end is never defined.

Otherwise, I like it.

 

[Octavian X]

I think the 'game of chance' is still workable. Perhaps the people in the election could agree to leave that duty to one person they all trust, or the responsibility could go to a mod.

 

[ravensfire]

I think the 'game of chance' is still workable. Perhaps the people in the election could agree to leave that duty to one person they all trust, or the responsibility could go to a mod.

There's a variety of means to handle a game of chance, all of which are workable. I would suggest that the run-off post should include the specific provisions to break another tie. This would give adequate public notice and commentary on the method.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Bengeance]

Yeah, there are plenty of game of chance scenarios, but we could always make it a violent knife fight to the death ala "Dune." Those are much more entertaining.

Or maybe a contest to see who can name all of the unique units from CivIV first.

Oh, or bribes. Bribes really work well. I'm a big fan of gift cards.

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

[Blkbird]

C. The Executive Branch

[...]

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for all matters pertaining to foreign Civilizations, including trade and other diplomatic agreements.

The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for the control of all units under the jurisdiction of the nation, excluding settlers, workers, and Great People.

Obviously there is overlap here. According to the text above, the Minister of Foreign can declare War, and so can the Minister of Defense by simply attacking a foreign unit. Do we want that?

On a purely technically note, I suggest replacing the term "Minister of Defense" with "Minister of Military Affairs". First, "defense" is just political BS for "military". Second, "defense" starts with the letter "D", same as "domestic", and makes abbreviation easily confusing. Third, it sounds nicer when three primary ministers' are all named "Minister of ABC Affairs" (abbreviated as "DM", "FM", "MM"). I further suggest lower offices created in-game to be named "Bureau of XYZ" (and the official "Chief of XYZ") to seperate them from the three primary offices.

Should this runoff poll also result in a tie between two or more front runners, the election shall be decided by a fair game of chance (for example, a coin flip or a random number generator) agreed upon by all involved candidates, and conducted by the newly-elected President. Should the Presidency be at stake in the runoff, the game of chance shall be conducted by a citizen agreed upon by the candidates.

I dislike the idea of making political decisions by chance very, very much. This is anything but serious, it would be uncalled for anywhere in the real world.

I suggest the winner to be appointed (within the candidated who have tied, of course) if the runoff election ties again. The appointing power should be given to the former office holder (the idea being that the former office holder is the person who knows the office best). As a side effect, a challenger has to get more votes in order to beat an official holder running for re-election, which is not uncommon in the real world (and not even limited to politic, the Chess World Champion for example can defend his title by tieing with the challenger).

In case the office is new and does not have a former office holder, the one to appoint the winner should be the official oversighting the office in question at the point when the office is created. Note this is not equal to "at the point when it's decided that the office be created". For example, when we decide a Bereau of Settlement be created when the next election period starts, we should make sure that the said Bereau is official created *after* the election of Minister of Domestic Affairs, so the new Minister, not the old one, has the un-tieing power.

A official with the power of appointing the winner of tied election should be allowed to transfer the power to someone he deems appropriate - he can do this inofficially anyway by just listen to that person.

Obviously, the untieing power for the presidential election of the first term is the one left in this "boot-up chain". I think we can live with the exception that this election has to run-off as often as necessary (beside the fact that the first term election are already over now).

E. Designated Player (DP) Pool

[...]

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The President will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used.

Better make it clear: "The order of formally accepting the nomination as DP should be used."

Your draft eliminate the power of the President to play the game himself at any time he chose to instead of using the next candidate from the DP pool. Is that intentional? Anyway, I support this elimination.

J. Game Sessions

[...]

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of Trade and Technology, in that order.

That last office is yet undefined. Also, do you really mean "chosen from" instead of "chosen by"? I think it should be "chosen by" - or better yet, "appointed by". The order of "appointers" should be the Prez, Domestic Minister, Foreign Minister, Military Minister.

L. Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

I'm confused. Aren't "24 hours" and "48 hours" referring to the same thing and thus conflicting?

 

[Mike Lemmer]

The President seems almost powerless in this version. The President is the one man who can tie the rest of the government into a (mostly) coherent vision. How is he supposed to do that if his only power is declaring votes?

Now for the meat of the statement:

All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority, to which they may appoint or recall Citizens as they please. The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the creating official. These lower offices may be created, filled and closed via an Initiative of the Citizen’s Assembly. All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly. Lower Offices created by the Assembly may not be closed by the Executive Officer to which the lower office is responsible, while the Assembly may close lower offices created by an Executive Officer. Irregardless of their origins, all lower offices shall close at the end of term during which they were created.

I'd recommend modifying it to this:

All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority. Upon creation, the Officer must publicly define the powers of the office & appoint its head. The head of an office controls the powers given to it by its superior Officer. The head also chooses a deputy to advise him and control the office when he is unavailable. The superior Officer can replace an office head at any time. An office head can replace his deputy at any time.

An Officer can close a subordinate lower office he created at any time during that term. At the end of that term, the Citizen's Assembly must vote whether to keep the recently-created lower office or disband it. Once the Citizen's Assembly approves a lower office this way, its superior Officer loses the power to disband it; he keeps the power to replace its head, though.

A successful Citizen's Assembly Initiative can disband any lower office.

Only Officers should be able to create lower offices, otherwise the Citizen's Assembly could delegate all of an Officer's powers to lower offices. The purpose of a lower office should be to aid their superior Officer with the details of his decisions, not wrest control with him. Therefore a lower offices' workers should only answer to their superior Officer (who in turn has to answer to the public anyway, although in extreme cases the Assembly could just disband the office completely).

After a trial term, the Assembly can vote to permanently keep or disband a lower office, keeping useful offices in the government.

 

[Bengeance]

I'm sure this has been stated before by other people, but my biggest concern with this sort of system is that it delegates all positions below that of the Minister of XYZ to the whim of the associated minister. There is certainly precedent for a certain amount of this in many forms of government, but here we are talking about three elected officials having almost complete control of the government. In essence we are saying that the mandate of three offices should be seen as giving carte blanche to its elected officials over any aspect of their operation.

I dislike this sort of power because it can easily be manipulated into a cronyistic system of empowerment for certain groups.

If an official decides that an office is neccessary for the operation of his department, be it DA, FA, or MA then I would suggest that they have the power to appoint a person for the office for the amount of time between the creation of the office to the conclusion of the current term (like a recess appointment). After being ratified by a vote of the citizens, that office holder should also be elected by the citizens just as the Ministers and President would be. If the Minister in charge decides the office is no longer needed he is free remove the office with the approval of the citizen's assembly.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

I'm sure this has been stated before by other people, but my biggest concern with this sort of system is that it delegates all positions below that of the Minister of XYZ to the whim of the associated minister. There is certainly precedent for a certain amount of this in many forms of government, but here we are talking about three elected officials having almost complete control of the government. In essence we are saying that the mandate of three offices should be seen as giving carte blanche to its elected officials over any aspect of their operation.

I dislike this sort of power because it can easily be manipulated into a cronyistic system of empowerment for certain groups.

If an official decides that an office is neccessary for the operation of his department, be it DA, FA, or MA then I would suggest that they have the power to appoint a person for the office for the amount of time between the creation of the office to the conclusion of the current term (like a recess appointment). After being ratified by a vote of the citizens, that office holder should also be elected by the citizens just as the Ministers and President would be. If the Minister in charge decides the office is no longer needed he is free remove the office with the approval of the citizen's assembly.

There are always recalls if the citizens as a whole do not like an appointment/election. These 3 officials do not have complete control, however. They cannot change anything in a specific city, as that lies to the governors. Deciding what is or isn't a law falls to the Judiciary. They still do hold a good amount of power, however. I do feel this is better than dividing it up into many small offices that are pretty powerless. I think we give a certain amount of trust the officials that WE ELECT - by an election we can choose the person we believe will do the best job.

I don't see how a 'complete' control of the government couldn't be accomplished under, say the Triumvirate. You would just need more people involved to 'gain power'. However, I feel this situation is highly unlikely, and if it does occur, we can recall them. This isn't an unlimited power spree.

Your latter paragraph is certainly reasonable, for positions that are long-term and unlikely to not have a need for, such as say, a Civic minister, once we research techs that enable civic changes. This government and overarching idea was creating to deal with the current situation in the game, much as people had suggested in the Civ3 DG that our Code of Laws change as our real game government system changed. That could be something fun to play around with...

Anyway, I have one last comment for the ruleset Oct posted too: add some sort of close under Deputies that makes only the 3 main Executive officials have deputies, not appointed officials (have a Deputy of the Secretary of the Navy would be pretty useless - it would only create clutter and make a useless position). I will try to post an updated version soon.

BTW, I will also try to work on this / get feedback on it through this DG as it seems Triumvirate has won, but I will try to get this working for DG2.

One last question: since you asked that question about the control of the goernment, do you have any suggestions on limiting power maybe? I'd welcome any ideas you have to solve your own concern.


edit: I also agree on all counts with Blkbird.

 

[Octavian X]

Ehh... One more oversight on my part. I should add missionaries to the list of units the Military leader can't control...

Thanks for the comments!

@Blkbird:

I assumed that declarations of war were the arena of the Foreign Affairs Ministry, given that nothing about foreign affairs falls under the Military's category. Because a declaration of war would be required (which he can't authorize), the ordered unit move would be illegal. A minister could order a unit to climb up a mountain peak all he wants, but it'll never happen - that kind of thing. You're right, though - adding a specific bit about declarations of war to the FA Ministry should do the trick so as to clean up any misconceptions.

There are actually a few examples of tied elections being decided by chance in the real world - Tied elections in Nevada are decided by lot (example story). You're right, it isn't a good precedent in general for a democracy, but it's the fastest, fairest way to get done - no offense, but the appointment thing is more potentially biased than my system. I'd feel comfortable removing it, at least, and continuning the practice of the never-ending runoff if we could put in a clause simply allowing the previous term's official to continue working while the election is decided. That's my true concern in all this - if runoffs run too long, we enter a legal gray area with a position that isn't clearly filled.

Thanks for the rest of suggestions. The changes will be posted tomorrow - it's late now, and I'm tired.

@Mike Lemmer:

The President isn't precluded from heading up any sort of organizational effort. Any citizen can try to organize the various strands of government. The problem is that there isn't any game power we can give the President to this effect - it intrudes on the various Ministers or Governers, who are probably best left controlling all areas of relevant interest for the sake of coherence. And, if we revert to the tradition Presidental role of being the only DP, we eliminate a good deal of progress that we've made with the DP Pool. I would suggest adding that the President is the 'head of state for the nation' to imply some sort of suggestion that he should take charge, but I would refrain from actually mandating something which would go against the loose-government philosophy of this document.

As for having the Executive Offices excessively burdened by the Assembly, well, it just seems like that's an unlikely scenario. If the Assembly was that angry at an official, it could simply recall him.

@Bengeance:

One of the key things about lower offices here is that the entire process can be controlled by the Citizen's Assembly through the power of Initiative. Via a valid vote, the Assembly, under my plan, could theoretically create ABC Office with DEF powers and with GHI citizen as it's head.

This combats the potential for cronyism under an appointment system. The Assembly can recall these appointees as needed, and could fill the office as desired - in fact, nothing says the Initiative to fill an office couldn't be formed like an election, with options for 'Citizen A,' 'Citizen B,' or 'No, allow the Minister to make the appointment.'

@Ginger_Ale:

I wouldn't mandate deputies for the lower offices, but I wouldn't eliminate them either. Flexibility in the system is key - not required but not restricted.

 

[Blkbird]

There are actually a few examples of tied elections being decided by chance in the real world - Tied elections in Nevada are decided by lot (example story). You're right, it isn't a good precedent in general for a democracy, but it's the fastest, fairest way to get done - no offense, but the appointment thing is more potentially biased than my system.

I did present arguments for the appointment rule, I'd be ready to discuss those arguments or any further arguments for and/or against the rule.

I have no problem with "potentially biased" as politics is always biased, if you will. Leaving things to chance is the absolute last resort and in my opinion, it can always be prevented because there's always better alternatives.

The election process is a very important part of the law, maybe we should post a poll and let the citizens decide?

 

[Blkbird]

Attention please!

While we're discussing how the future "Flex" CoL should look like, I've started a thread to discuss the acutal process of chaning the CoL, assuming it will happen. I invite you all to participate in the discussion there:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3560837

 

[Swissempire]

I think it is not nessacry to completely change the code of laws. As pointed out by myself and Daveshack, this tri we are under is but a few steps awy from being a flex with a diff name. Making the tri three seperate offices makes us a step closer, and also the ability to add and subtract is in the Tri code of laws! After this the arguement boils down to its to wordy and thats no reason to overthrow a government form! I think if we all sit down and read the Tri and think, many of the Flex supporters would be more than satisfied!

 

[von_Clausewitz]

I think that Swissempire makes a valid point. Other then not defining what the 'lower offices' are, I see little substantive difference.

So in the role of Chief Mischief Maker, I present an alternative Flexible system, which is also an alternative to the Triumverate system. For those that are familiar with the US Constitution this may bring about deja vu. A substantial difference is that a Bill needs only be initially passed by one House, though a vetoed bill must still be passed by both Houses. Perhaps this will have enough flexibility and room for growth and change that is desired. At the least I hope it generates discussion.

Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
Section. 2.
The House of Representatives shall be composed of all Citizens; unless that citizen chooses not to or has been restricted by impeachment or Supreme Court ruling.
The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment. The Speaker of the House shall provide the unified voice of the House of Representatives and initiate discussion amongst its members.
Section. 3.
The Senate shall be composed of 1 for every 4 population points, or fraction thereof, for each city, plus 2 additional for the Capitol and other City Government cities; and each Senator shall have one Vote. The term of a Senator shall last 1 month.
The Vice President shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.
The Senate shall choose their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President.
Section. 4.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every week, and such Meeting shall be on Monday, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.
Section. 5.
The Senate shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as the Senate may provide.
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.
Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and publish the same; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall be entered on the Journal.
Section. 6.
No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the Nation; and no Person holding any Office under the Nation, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.
Section. 7.
All Bills for raising Revenue by adjusting the balance of science, tax and culture shall originate in the House of Representatives.
Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives or the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President: If he approve he shall play it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be considered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it.
Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary shall be presented to the President; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the Nation by selection among the avialable civic options that may arise;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization for the processing of new citizen applications;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts by providing a clear and defined couse through the tech tree;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To declare War, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water including the use and care of captured workers and cities;
To raise and support Armies as well as provide and maintain a Navy by authorizing Upgrades and setting threshholds for size and Foriegn deployment in a manner that would extract funds from the Treasury of the Nation;--And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the Community, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Article. II.
Section. 1.
The executive Power shall be vested in a President. He shall hold his Office during the Term of 1 Month, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term.
In the case of the removal of the President from office, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the siad office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal resignation or inability, both of the President and Vice President declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, untill the disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.
Section. 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices.
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur, with the exception of initial peace treaties which may be accepted without Senate consent; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the inferior Courts, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
Section. 3.
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers from foriegn nations, and excepting measures restricted by Congessional regulation, may accept any such proposals; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.
Section. 4.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
Article III.
Section. 1.
The Administrative Power of the Community shall be vested in one supreme Court. Inferior Courts shall be established to conduct civil procedings, and monitor elections. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour.
Section. 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the Nation, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority.
The Supreme Court shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the Community: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
Article. IV.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall enact Amendments to this Code of Laws;
Article. V.
This Code of Laws, and the Laws of the Nation which shall be made in Pursuance thereof shall be the supreme Law of the Land.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and all executive and judicial Officers of the Nation shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Code of Laws.

Before it comes up, Governors and Minister/Secretary/Director of State/TreasuryMilitary ect. are not defined but expressly allowed and desired.
Where is the referendum and recall and other 'Power to the People' things that we need to have? The 'Power of the People' is in the House of Representatives which is equal to the Senate in most matters. House gets to set the budget and conduct impeachments, Senate gets to confirm or deny Presidential appointments, other then those differences they are equal. So why have a Senate at all? By having a more exclusive legislative branch, it provides more focus. Senators are elected to get things done and as such I would expect more bills to be proposed and passed by the senate. The representative gives each citizen a voice though and would provide the same things that including referendum, initiatives and recalls would provide while also expanding what is possible from the citizens beyond those measures.

There are yet flaws apparent to me which I have not been able to adress to my satisfaction. Namely what constitutes a quorum for the House of Representitives. Under the strict wording of the Constitution every memeber of CFC is potentially already a citizen of the DGame. Even limiting the House of Representitives to those who have registered as citizens makes for a large base where getting half to vote on a bill would be impressive. Perhaps making the quorum relate to the most recent election; one half of all votes. That would almost dilute it. Then again, perhaps a majority of interested Representatives/Citizens (in other words whoever shows up to vote) should be sufficient to pass a bill into law.

 

[Blkbird]

Excuse me, von_Clausewitz, you call that system of yours "flexible"? Adding an extra layer (the Senate) to the decision making process is "flexbile" how?

 

[Gloriana]

I am not in favour of this government you propose. First of all a LOT of effort has gone into creating the Flex and Tri governments, and a LOT of work shall be needed to create this into a form of government a majority of the people agrees with. Furthermore, seeing as this government requires a continuous large workforce, I don't think it's really workable.
On a personal note, I don't think it's a good idea to largely base our government on the existing US government. A great number of people from all over the world have worked hard together here to create a new kind of government containing aspects of several of the world's (democratic) governments also containing uniqe elements. Simply completely basing our government on an existing one would not do justice to the incredible amount of work that was put into the creation of both the Tri and Flex government.

Having said that I'd like to add that I surely do respect the amount of effort you put into creating this government, and that I sincerely hope you shall not cease to make contributions like this one in the future.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

I think it is not nessacry to completely change the code of laws. As pointed out by myself and Daveshack, this tri we are under is but a few steps awy from being a flex with a diff name. Making the tri three seperate offices makes us a step closer, and also the ability to add and subtract is in the Tri code of laws! After this the arguement boils down to its to wordy and thats no reason to overthrow a government form! I think if we all sit down and read the Tri and think, many of the Flex supporters would be more than satisfied!

Wordiness IS an issue. The purpose of the Flexible government is to be 'light' yet hold everything it needs to work effectively. It's open ended and can be simple or complex as needed. I feel the Triumvirate is too wordy, too long, and has too many rules.

von_Clausewitz, read what I wrote above. That government is too 'specific' and TOO LONG. Btw, personally, I don't like the idea of a house and a senate (Congress), like the US government. Call me a traditionalist, but I just don't like them. So far I'm only backing Octavian's ruleset (update it with the comments made here, Oct, if you can, if not I will do so soon).

I am not in favour of this government you propose. First of all a LOT of effort has gone into creating the Flex and Tri governments, and a LOT of work shall be needed to create this into a form of government a majority of the people agrees with. Furthermore, seeing as this government requires a continuous large workforce, I don't think it's really workable.

What?? "Continuous large workforce"? Let's count the Triumvirate: 8 positions, plus 4 deputies, and governors. The Flexible, posted by Oct, has ... 4, and 3 deputies (assuming it will be edited so only the defined positions have deputies - President has no deputy), plus governors. That's 7 positions to 12 - using math, I think the Flexible has less.

Sure it can go more, but only if the citizens/officials deem it is necessary. It can ebb and flow with the participation of the demogamers - lots of people active? Great! - we can have a large number of officials. Getting low on participation near the end? Fine - we can stick with the basics. It's flexible for a reason.