A Learning Game (Help me with Monarch)

I will hold off on any more specific advice until OP catches up with my shadow game, but just a general thought on the situation here, spoiler free as long as you have played to like turn 3:

I think any time you decide on an early war, you need to then weigh every decision in terms of how it gets you closer to a DoW. 200 turns from now, owning all of your nearest neighbor's lands is much more important than how many gold tiles city X can work.

Though I'm sure players can find a peaceful path here, to my mind the decision is obvious. I met Shaka's scout on turn 2 and immediately decided "He must die." From then to 1120BC I was pretty much just thinking about executing that goal. I'm not dismissing long-term planning, but like Lymond mentioned, leveraing short-term advantage is crucial to achieving those long-term goals.
 
Among those two choices, which would you say is a more feasible second city location (or perhaps something else entirely)?

If you have determined to rush Shaka, entirely depends on strat resources and your unit of choice. You get 1(!) city before you rush, no more. Otherwise, we are talking catapults or something.
 
I will hold off on any more specific advice until OP catches up with my shadow game, but just a general thought on the situation here, spoiler free as long as you have played to like turn 3:

I think any time you decide on an early war, you need to then weigh every decision in terms of how it gets you closer to a DoW. 200 turns from now, owning all of your nearest neighbor's lands is much more important than how many gold tiles city X can work.

Though I'm sure players can find a peaceful path here, to my mind the decision is obvious. I met Shaka's scout on turn 2 and immediately decided "He must die." From then to 1120BC I was pretty much just thinking about executing that goal. I'm not dismissing long-term planning, but like Lymond mentioned, leveraing short-term advantage is crucial to achieving those long-term goals.

Oh I apologize! Am I supposed to be reading your game as I'm playing mine? I thought I was supposed to wait until it was over before doing that, so I don't spoil anything (like the location of strategic resources, for instance).

By 'he must die' did you immediately DoW him and take his scout, or did you mean that you had immediately planned on a rush?

Yes, considering his location in relation to some very nice land, and taking him down in general for a second capital city location, a rush (though I'm usually not a fan of them) seems like a good option for this situation.

That means researching AH after BW would probably be a good idea, then, so that I have a knowledge of where both copper and horses are to plan my rush? Do you think it would still be unwise to settle that production city to the west before I have knowledge of this (since you said that 2 cities is the limit for a rush, and if I found out that the resource was out of my borders, it would be impossible then to properly 'rush' Shaka)?
 
Oh I apologize! Am I supposed to be reading your game as I'm playing mine? I thought I was supposed to wait until it was over before doing that, so I don't spoil anything (like the location of strategic resources, for instance).

Nothing to apologize for. I just meant I would try to refrain from posting spoiler-y stuff until you played some more. I was getting into convos with others about stuff past your point. You can read my game or not, as you wish. It's your demo game after all. As I said, my post spoils to 1120BC and locations of strat resources. I would recommend taking a look after you play your game to around that point and see how I approached it.

By 'he must die' did you immediately DoW him and take his scout, or did you mean that you had immediately planned on a rush?

I mean I immediately planned a rush. Worker steal can work in some situations but in this case it would be counterproductive, triggering a unit spam by Shaka. Would rather sneak up on him ;)

That means researching AH after BW would probably be a good idea, then, so that I have a knowledge of where both copper and horses are to plan my rush?

Yep. Can't open your save right now and I don't remember exactly what you can see so apologies if I am ahead of things but, I believe you ca see the copper to the NW right? So you know that's an option, even though it's a little farther than one might like, but it's an option. But your UU is much superior, as long as Shaka doesn't have copper. Darkcsis and I were discussing the efficacy of gambling on AH in spoiler tags, which you can read if you like :)

Do you think it would still be unwise to settle that production city to the west before I have knowledge of this (since you said that 2 cities is the limit for a rush, and if I found out that the resource was out of my borders, it would be impossible then to properly 'rush' Shaka)?

Yep, unwise. If you are determined to rush and you don't have a strat resource in your BFC, 2nd city needs to get you one (in 1st ring!).
 
Is health from floodplains only from those that you are working, or all that are within the BFC? If the latter is the case, then I renounce my idea of settling there right away to be good at all (I thought it was only the FPs that you were working that would cause unhealthiness).
Health effect from tile overlays (floodplains, jungle, forests, fallout) affect any city that has the tile in its BFC, for overlapped cities ths means it affects both.
Ah, so as a rule of thumb short term gains are generally stronger in the early game, then? I thought it was quite the contrary; seeing the early game as sort of an 'investment' for the later game
Of course the early game is an investment into the future, the problem is how long it takes to pay off. Short term benefits are usually used to increase the amount you can invest in the mid-long term, basically causing a snowball effect.
for basic production (regardless of getting horses, which would be nice) that spot along the river to the west of my capital looks like a feasible, close location that would yield lots of hammers.
The trouble with that area as of your screenshots is that you can see no food there, and the southern jungle is almost certainly not worth settling. Without food the cities productive potential in the short-medium term isn't good. And if your going to rush you really need a strat resource, which would even have riority over food in this case as nearby food is so scarce.
 
Nothing to apologize for. I just meant I would try to refrain from posting spoiler-y stuff until you played some more. I was getting into convos with others about stuff past your point. You can read my game or not, as you wish. It's your demo game after all. As I said, my post spoils to 1120BC and locations of strat resources. I would recommend taking a look after you play your game to around that point and see how I approached it.



I mean I immediately planned a rush. Worker steal can work in some situations but in this case it would be counterproductive, triggering a unit spam by Shaka. Would rather sneak up on him ;)



Yep. Can't open your save right now and I don't remember exactly what you can see so apologies if I am ahead of things but, I believe you ca see the copper to the NW right? So you know that's an option, even though it's a little farther than one might like, but it's an option. But your UU is much superior, as long as Shaka doesn't have copper. Darkcsis and I were discussing the efficacy of gambling on AH in spoiler tags, which you can read if you like :)



Yep, unwise. If you are determined to rush and you don't have a strat resource in your BFC, 2nd city needs to get you one (in 1st ring!).

Okay, and realistically I can't even get another city settled before I research AH anyway, so I'd better plan once I have that tech in the bag. There's a good chance I'm overthinking this too early.

I'll read up on your progress once I get up to date with your game. I'm playing in pretty slow blocks (10-15 turns or something around there was recommended) so it might take a while to get up to speed with you, sorry! :p

Health effect from tile overlays (floodplains, jungle, forests, fallout) affect any city that has the tile in its BFC, for overlapped cities ths means it affects both.
Of course the early game is an investment into the future, the problem is how long it takes to pay off. Short term benefits are usually used to increase the amount you can invest in the mid-long term, basically causing a snowball effect.
The trouble with that area as of your screenshots is that you can see no food there, and the southern jungle is almost certainly not worth settling. Without food the cities productive potential in the short-medium term isn't good. And if your going to rush you really need a strat resource, which would even have riority over food in this case as nearby food is so scarce.


Thanks for the info on health effects from overlays. It should be helpful in my city planning.

As it concerns that city to the west, I'll need to research AH and finish BW (I believe I was one or two turns away in the last update) before I can realistically plan my second city.

I suppose a rush is the appropriate plan, then?

I'll begin working on the next update now, and should have it up shortly.

EDIT: Big error. I'm actually 15 turns away from BW currently, which is definitely enough time to get my second city up... This is difficult... :p
 
Initially, I'd like to say that I got my screenshot problem fixed, so now I'll be playing in fullscreen, which should help things be more legible.

Also, I will be writing as I go, narrating my thoughts on events and decisions as they happen (so that you can more readily critique my thought processes here and there). If I say something like "I don't know if Shaka has copper" and then I later find out that he does in the same update, for instance, this is the reason why. Do you think this is a bad method? I can more easily jot down my thoughts if I do it this way, instead of having to remember chronologically everything that happened, and what I thought about it, etc.

To 2560BC

Spoiler :
--

Okay, so here we return, in 3440BC with a level 1 capital that's two turns away from producing its first unit, a work boat. If I would have waited a little longer and taken Voice's advice, I would be farther along, but, alas, here we are, and I'll make the best of it.

My immediate tech path is going to look like this:

Spoiler :


... and if horses are revealed by AH, I'll probably go Wheel ---> Pottery after that, but as of now, the most immediate needs are revealing strategic resources so that I can plan my second city for rushing Shaka.

I continue to circle around with my scout, revealing the coastal tiles of the peninsula to our east, and then crossing through our capital's BFC and around again to reveal another circular layer of the map. Hopefully, if timed right, I should land around Shaka again with my scout by the time I have finished BW, and I can then see if he has copper for Impi('?)s, which is important to know in order to gauge his strength so that we know how sizable of a force will be needed for rushing.

My wb is done, and I improve a clam, work it, and my worker will be finished in 8 turns in this way. That's 5 yield for the worker, 1 from the production from the tile that I settled on, and 4 from the clam. I'll need to improve that corn ASAP, and sadly there's a good 3 turns of building that farm after BW has been researched which could be used for chopping as early as possible.

With my worker finally finished, I ask the following question: do I want a warrior, or do I want another wb for higher food yield and whipping? I think a warrior is a better option for the time being, for a little bit of barb protection. I might follow that up with another wb, but if good strategic resources present themselves, going for an escort and then a settler might be a better plan.

Upon researching BW, I decide not to adopt slavery yet, while immediate growth is so crucial. (Please inform me if this is a bad idea.) I will definitely need it later, and probably very soon.

After I farm the corn, I move my worker 1N to chop the riverside plains. (I was unsure whether or not I should spend another worker turn and chop the grass forest to the east of the capital, but then decided that time was too important, and I would end up using that plains tile because it was riverside.)

Spoiler :


We also run into Qin, who lies relatively far to our northwest and apparently has some floodplains in his capital, which may not be good, because that's a really high yield for production of settlers, and if he goes for land that we want, the competition is going to be fierce.

Also, upon researching BW a few turns back, copper is revealed, though not in the best of places. I'll have to go for this general area if either we don't have access to horses upon researching AH, or if Shaka himself has copper. If I had to settle for getting the copper, I could settle on the forested plains hill 1E of the wine (I had meant to edit this in but forgot before I uploaded to Photobucket) and get access to that rice, or, if it's worth the risk, settle in the desert 2N of that spot and grab that grass cow for extra food to work the various hills. Either way, the copper is immediately accessible without a border pop, but I am uncertain which option is better, given that we need to settle there for one or both of the aforementioned reasons.

We're informed now at 2800BC that Shaka has adopted Slavery, which means that he does in fact have BW, and if he also has copper, that means he's certainly building impi's.

Spoiler :


We finish our warrior (and chopping that forest) and begin building another, which will be done in 1 turn. I'm going to chop a grass forest 1N of the capital, possibly going towards a settler. I send the finished warrior northwest towards the copper, to fogbust in case I need to settle there.

Spoiler :


Horses are revealed, but in a fairly hard to access spot, and in a food poor region that AFAIK doesn't have access to any food bonuses. If Shaka doesn't have copper, immortals are going to be better than axemen, so I'll need to find a place to settle there, though I'm very much unsure as to where that should be. Your thoughts here would be appreciated.

Once our second warrior is done (which I leave in the city so I don't lose happiness), I switch to a wb (with the chopping of the aforesaid grass forest hill (should I be providing screenshots for stuff like this?), combined by the fact that I'm growing in one turn, I micro it so that the boat will be finished by 1 turn after the forest is chopped. Once I'm level 4, and that boat is done, I'll be working the improved corn and 2 clams, and then I'll send my worker to chop and mine those two grass hills to our east (which upon growing to level 5, our happy cap, we should have a strong yield base to get our settler and next worker out quickly.

Spoiler :


That warrior that we sent northeast is surrounded by barb animals. Two lions and one panther effectively block off us from moving, but fortunately we are on a forested hill, and I fortify the warrior there. Barbs typically attack even if they are likely to lose, at least in my experience. Should I have gotten out fogbusters sooner (could I have realistically)?

Spoiler :


Shaka does not have copper! Nor is he close to it (unless it's in the tundra to the north, which I doubt he'd expand into anyway. This is good news, and it means that going for the horses is going to be our best option (IMHO), however, I'm still entirely unsure about where to drop the city for this. Regardless, it is absolutely time to get the second city out. The seafood start always slows down starting work on the settler, but since I'm going to rush, I can't afford to wait longer.

It also looks like he's settled his second city, one tile to the north of the site that I initially vouched for.

An interesting, challenging and altogether thought provoking game so far!

Here is the known world in 2560BC:

Spoiler :


And, despite not having copper, he still is building units for sure, as evidenced by the power demographic. (It also appears that he has relatively higher food and hammer yield, and I'm not sure if that has to do with him getting good bonuses, or my having a seafood start.)

Spoiler :



View attachment Eli BC-2560 (AspiringScholar).rar

EDIT: "That warrior that we sent northwest... :)

Looks like I'm also having some trouble with the save. I followed Dubioza's guide perfectly, and put the save in a packed file. Maybe the problem is that I'm getting my save from my flash drive (transferring all screenshots and saves from desktop to my laptop as it's easier to type and set this up while I play this way) so the save isn't coming directly out of BtS's directory...
 
nono I said you don't need to pack saves,
# 18: You don't have to pack it, just browse... for .CivBeyondSwordSave files.
It shouldn't matter if you transfer them, just copy/paste those .CivBeyondSwordSave files from MyDocs/BtS/...wherever.

I don't have time to read all that atm, will do later. For convenience you should shorten the story, more people will read it - I should too; it's hard to, I know - as I also still have more questions then answers...have patience - you have a lot of basics, you'll get where you what in no time!
 
nono I said you don't need to pack saves, It shouldn't matter if you transfer them, just copy/paste those .CivBeyondSwordSave files from MyDocs/BtS/...wherever.

I don't have time to read all that atm, will do later. For convenience you should shorten the story, more people will read it - I should too; it's hard to, I know - as I also still have more questions then answers...have patience - you have a lot of basics, you'll get where you what in no time!

Ah, okay! My bad, I misread you.

Alright, I'll focus on expediting it next time and cutting out some of the less important and more trivial details. Thanks for letting me know, though.
 
Settle on the PH NE of horses, spam some immortals and kill Shaka's ass.

Agreed.

Shaka may be building troops but he has no choice but build Archers right now. Immortals love fighting archers. As long as he doesn't hook up copper you will have no trouble - he won't make it to IW...

I'd just focus on a 2 city Immortal rush as fast as possible. You would have some time but it's good practice to always go 100% into a chariot or axe rush even if you don't have to. Much less chance of failure. As soon as Shaka is gone you'll have to plan out the rest of the game - looks like you may be in semi-isolation at that point and will not be able to trade techs. Only turn 36 though so it may be too early to tell.
 
Agreed.

Shaka may be building troops but he has no choice but build Archers right now. Immortals love fighting archers. As long as he doesn't hook up copper you will have no trouble - he won't make it to IW...

I'd just focus on a 2 city Immortal rush as fast as possible. You would have some time but it's good practice to always go 100% into a chariot or axe rush even if you don't have to. Much less chance of failure. As soon as Shaka is gone you'll have to plan out the rest of the game - looks like you may be in semi-isolation at that point and will not be able to trade techs. Only turn 36 though so it may be too early to tell.

True, I forgot about the immortal's bonus against archers... More exp! :D

Also, it is true that from the looks of things, I might be fairly alone, but remember, we did find one tile belonging to Qin, so we know that he's there, and there could be more civs around him. I'll have to scout some more to find out.

Plus, as far as tech trading is concerned, he does have FPs, which is usually (but certainly not always) a good indicator of higher research, so even if he is the only other neighbor in my continent besides Shaka, it would grant me some ability for tech trading.
 
Plus, as far as tech trading is concerned, he does have FPs, which is usually (but certainly not always) a good indicator of higher research, so even if he is the only other neighbor in my continent besides Shaka, it would grant me some ability for tech trading.
Only once you'd get him to friendly.
 
Plus, as far as tech trading is concerned, he does have FPs, which is usually (but certainly not always) a good indicator of higher research, so even if he is the only other neighbor in my continent besides Shaka, it would grant me some ability for tech trading.
The semi iso tech trading issue isn't about how fast the AI will tech, its that AIs are unwilling to trade most monopoly techs unless you are Friendly with them.
 
Ah, I see. That shouldn't be too hard, though, right? Trading alone can get up to +4 relations, and if I adopt his religion (if he founds one, which is not dependable, per se) and the +1 from being at peace for a while, it looks like friendly is already there. Granted, it will take a fair amount of time to get there...
 
It may not be bad like you said. Religion will be necessary and I wouldn't count on him founding one. Might be as simple as using your first great scientist to get Philosophy rather than build an Academy. Looks like there's a lot of land though - when AIs have lots of land it tends to slow down their tech so he may not help much even if he's friendly.

Good news is that with 4 AIs on the other continent with all religions except Taoism (if that's the case) it's unlikely more than maybe 2 of them will share religion - so you may not be behind them at all or even ahead when you meet. Slow teching games are fine as long as everyone is teching slowly... Hopefully Mansa Musa isn't over there.
 
It may not be bad like you said. Religion will be necessary and I wouldn't count on him founding one. Might be as simple as using your first great scientist to get Philosophy rather than build an Academy. Looks like there's a lot of land though - when AIs have lots of land it tends to slow down their tech so he may not help much even if he's friendly.

Good news is that with 4 AIs on the other continent with all religions except Taoism (if that's the case) it's unlikely more than maybe 2 of them will share religion - so you may not be behind them at all or even ahead when you meet. Slow teching games are fine as long as everyone is teching slowly... Hopefully Mansa Musa isn't over there.

You're probably right, although, we can't even be sure that it's 2 continents. ;) This is fractal, and I'm not too familiar with that script other than that it is is generally highly random, but for all I know, there could be more than 2 (and I think pangaea is the only script that forms one continent, right?).

What about Mansa Musa, is he a 'tradewhore'?
 
there's 2 AIs, so this is not semi-iso. (edit: ah yeah, it would be so without Shaka, but that is not a concern)

honestly, this is a strange setup and not what I'd envisioned. the resource distribution is a bit odd especially relative to your cap. There's some okay land and resources for sure, but at a bit of a distance.

You could setup a nice empire though. You have 2 options really. Expand as normal and grab as much good land as possible or grab horses now and take out Shaka.

It should be noted that, if I'm correct, the AIs will not attack with just archers. Therefore, if Shaka has no metals or horses anytime soon then he is not a threat. Ofc, we don't know if he has iron somewhere, but you can keep an eye on that.

Probably the best play here though is just to take out shaka now. Just get the horses and go stomp. After taking him out and getting his 2 to 3 cities, you can focus on filling in the land and establishing your economy.
 
AS said:
and I think pangaea is the only script that forms one continent, right?

Fractal actually can as well. Of course, several of the "flat" maps are basically one continent - just with a lot more land. Like Great Plains, Highlands and Rainforest.

Mansa is a techwhore
 
Probably the best play here though is just to take out shaka now. Just get the horses and go stomp. After taking him out and getting his 2 to 3 cities, you can focus on filling in the land and establishing your economy.

That does sound like the best route to me. As far as getting the horses goes, would the best idea be to just settle somewhere where I can immediately improve them, disregarding the well-being of the city, or should I go for a nicer spot and the get the horses with a border pop?

I'm really curious about Qin, and what lies behind him, especially if he's going to try and settle to his southeast for land that we're trying for also. However, if he is the only other AI on our landmass, I wonder if it would be worth considering keeping him around as a trade tech trading 'friend' to research faster?

EDIT: Sorry, I posted right as you did twice in a row! Thanks for the info on the map scripts. I assumed as much from Mansa Musa.
 
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