A New Hope

[Nightinggale]

Wouldn't it make sense for you to first team up with orlanth to get Colonization:2071 to a stable / playable / balanced version ?

1) You could build up your Civ4:Col modding knowledge a lot faster by working with a more experienced modder.
2) Once Colonization:2071 has achieved a playable status, you might be able to relatively easily convert it to A New Hope by simply exchanging graphics and texts.

For once I actually agree with ray on this one. One thing which bugs me with the shared code is that only M:C is playable at the moment. It was playable before the code was shared. It would likely not be a bad idea to work hard on getting col2071 playable as this is the real test to show if all hardcoded issues have been dealt with before letting totally inexperienced modders start something on their own. Also as ray said, not being alone when starting modding is likely a good idea. We should congratulate orlanth for his new teacher promotion

The "A new hope" git module can then be deleted and made again later. Later being at a time where it can clone (actually fork) col2071 when it uses space textures and stuff like that meaning it gets the right feeling right away.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I uploaded a Wookiee to the Civ4Col download database a long time ago. Did you check that out?

 

[PatriotNorwood]

For once I actually agree with ray on this one. One thing which bugs me with the shared code is that only M:C is playable at the moment. It was playable before the code was shared. It would likely not be a bad idea to work hard on getting col2071 playable as this is the real test to show if all hardcoded issues have been dealt with before letting totally inexperienced modders start something on their own. Also as ray said, not being alone when starting modding is likely a good idea. We should congratulate orlanth for his new teacher promotion

The "A new hope" git module can then be deleted and made again later. Later being at a time where it can clone (actually fork) col2071 when it uses space textures and stuff like that meaning it gets the right feeling right away.

This is a very good idea if orlanth wants my help. It is even better than my original Idea of helping with M:C first, which is not Sci-fi and is already (I think) past my skill level. I would gladly learn all I can from 2071. Let me know what you are thinking and I will act on it.

@Andorc the orc: No I have not seen your Wookie thanks to the confusing downloads database for Colonization...

 

[Kailric]

@Andorc the orc: No I have not seen your Wookie thanks to the confusing downloads database for Colonization...

Speaking of units I guessing there are Star Wars unit packs out there right? It's the units that really set the atmosphere and theme. Getting Star Wars units into Col will be the biggest challenge out of everything that needs done. I would start their first and see what can and can not be done, and get help accordingly.

 

[orlanth]

Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
For once I actually agree with ray on this one. One thing which bugs me with the shared code is that only M:C is playable at the moment. It was playable before the code was shared. It would likely not be a bad idea to work hard on getting col2071 playable as this is the real test to show if all hardcoded issues have been dealt with before letting totally inexperienced modders start something on their own. Also as ray said, not being alone when starting modding is likely a good idea. We should congratulate orlanth for his new teacher promotion

The "A new hope" git module can then be deleted and made again later. Later being at a time where it can clone (actually fork) col2071 when it uses space textures and stuff like that meaning it gets the right feeling right away.

This is a very good idea if orlanth wants my help. It is even better than my original Idea of helping with M:C first, which is not Sci-fi and is already (I think) past my skill level. I would gladly learn all I can from 2071. Let me know what you are thinking and I will act on it.

Sure I would love to have your help with the 2071 mod! I've made somewhat of a start on the new version but recent progress has been slow, as I am now having to re-train for a new job and move to a new city. Due to my working a lot, as fair warning I may be around sporadically at least till later in the year and may often be slow or absent But especially with someone else around to help out this could help keep some progress going.

For the time being, if you are totally new to modding the best way to get started is to start reading through some of the good existing tutorials about Civ4 modding and XML, to get a general idea of what you'll be dealing with and learn the basic foundation of how to accomplish the things you want using the XML files. I think a great place to start learning is the Civ4 XML Modding Reference on the Modiki site, starting by reading the general XML tutorials toward the top, and then looking at Modiki pages describing some of most important XML files like CIV4BuildingInfos.xml and CIV4UnitInfos.xml. If you like, in a mod folder on your PC you can start experimenting with editing some of these XML values to see how you can achieve the results you want, as you've already started doing.

More specialized tutorials are available at Civ4 Modding Tutorials, and some good Colonization-specific ones are at TC01's Colonization Modding Tutorial Thread. Especially look at the one for getting Civ4 Units into Civ4Col, this will be ultra useful in getting scifi and starwars graphics to work in Col mods.

In general one of the areas I could use help on the most, and where you might quickly learn how to accomplish it effectively, is in starting to import the scifi building and unit graphics I've collected and link them to the buildings and units in the XML Artdef files (the ones in the Assets/XML/Art folder, documented starting here), to allow good graphics to show up in game. Fortunately I do have a huge bank of scifi 2D art and scifi-themed nif graphics for Civ4 that I've been gradually building up over the millenia, and will try to upload a pack of these soon, you are of course welcome to eventually use them for A New Hope as well as the base 2071. If you can start getting familiar with the Artdef XML files and some basic graphics stuff like the nifskope tutorial, I think you should soon be able to make quick progress at adding scifi-themed graphics to the mod.

Anyway I'm sure that's too many terabytes of data to absorb all at once But once you get tired of learning & would like to relax, maybe try your hand at playing a few games of the older (fully playable) version of 2071 and see what you think of it, keeping notes on things that you like or could be changed or improved in the future version.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

Sure I would love to have your help with the 2071 mod! I've made somewhat of a start on the new version but recent progress has been slow, as I am now having to re-train for a new job and move to a new city. Due to my working a lot, as fair warning I may be around sporadically at least till later in the year and may often be slow or absent But especially with someone else around to help out this could help keep some progress going.

For the time being, if you are totally new to modding the best way to get started is to start reading through some of the good existing tutorials about Civ4 modding and XML, to get a general idea of what you'll be dealing with and learn the basic foundation of how to accomplish the things you want using the XML files. I think a great place to start learning is the Civ4 XML Modding Reference on the Modiki site, starting by reading the general XML tutorials toward the top, and then looking at Modiki pages describing some of most important XML files like CIV4BuildingInfos.xml and CIV4UnitInfos.xml. If you like, in a mod folder on your PC you can start experimenting with editing some of these XML values to see how you can achieve the results you want, as you've already started doing.

More specialized tutorials are available at Civ4 Modding Tutorials, and some good Colonization-specific ones are at TC01's Colonization Modding Tutorial Thread. Especially look at the one for getting Civ4 Units into Civ4Col, this will be ultra useful in getting scifi and starwars graphics to work in Col mods.

In general one of the areas I could use help on the most, and where you might quickly learn how to accomplish it effectively, is in starting to import the scifi building and unit graphics I've collected and link them to the buildings and units in the XML Artdef files (the ones in the Assets/XML/Art folder, documented starting here), to allow good graphics to show up in game. Fortunately I do have a huge bank of scifi 2D art and scifi-themed nif graphics for Civ4 that I've been gradually building up over the millenia, and will try to upload a pack of these soon, you are of course welcome to eventually use them for A New Hope as well as the base 2071. If you can start getting familiar with the Artdef XML files and some basic graphics stuff like the nifskope tutorial, I think you should soon be able to make quick progress at adding scifi-themed graphics to the mod.

Anyway I'm sure that's too many terabytes of data to absorb all at once But once you get tired of learning & would like to relax, maybe try your hand at playing a few games of the older (fully playable) version of 2071 and see what you think of it, keeping notes on things that you like or could be changed or improved in the future version.

Yes, Yes, Yes! So many gems hidden all around the site, I have or am working on reading all of the tutorials you mentioned. Also I have done some experimenting as you suggested. Once you think I am ready to help let me know how you would like me to help. I have played some of 2071 recently, and I do like the feel of it. Should make a nice base or Star Wars when finished.

Unfortunately Star Wars art assets are extremely limited... most can only be found in the one or two unfinished mods, but there are a few around.

 

[Nightinggale]

I uploaded a Wookiee to the Civ4Col download database a long time ago. Did you check that out?

That gave me an idea. We could add race to units. We can then make race specific graphics for each profession/unit.

We can also make race specific abilities or modifiers, like Gungans can gain production bonus in swamp/water and possible better move. Maybe promotions could be used for this purpose. Free and prohibited promotions based on race could make the game way more diverse. If we prohibit professions for certain races as well, then it would really get diverse.

New units grown from cities will then be the same race as the city meaning a city with one human and 3 wookies will make 3 wookies out of 4 new units on average as a bit of randomness enters here.

While this may not be that complex from a DLL point of view, I fear that graphics will kill the idea due to way too high workload. It would solve the problem of having standard/muslim/viking/etc versions of the same unit in M:C though.

Sure I would love to have your help with the 2071 mod!

Should I delete A new hope module then? Once we need it eventually, we can create it again. That might even be easier than moving the future updates made to col2071, though both are fairly easy.

Maybe it would be a good idea to invite kodemunkey into col2071 as well since he too talked about forking col2071 into his own space mod. I imagine it would be easier to make a space mod if we wait to fork until the mod is playable or semi playable. The very least it would likely be a good idea to have shared work in fundamentals like space terrain development, astroids and whatever we can come up with in that regard.

 

[orlanth]

Yes, Yes, Yes! So many gems hidden all around the site, I have or am working on reading all of the tutorials you mentioned. Also I have done some experimenting as you suggested. Once you think I am ready to help let me know how you would like me to help. I have played some of 2071 recently, and I do like the feel of it. Should make a nice base or Star Wars when finished. Unfortunately Star Wars art assets are extremely limited... most can only be found in the one or two unfinished mods, but there are a few around.

Cool, I am galactically glad to have your help! That's true about the graphics but there are a lot of other scifi assets which can be repurposed. And I think I do have a Venator Star Destroyer somewhere (I mean have the graphics for one, not that I have one parked out back) Though my 2071 xml progress has been slow I have been gradually working on creating a series of multiple 3-tiered sets of scifi buildings using nifskope (ie buildings with a beginning, intermediate, and advanced tier of each building type as used in Colonization), and will be glad to let anyone use those for any scifi mods once they're in 2071.

Also you can download the Dune Wars and Planetfall mods for Civ4BtS and unpack their FPK graphics packs (see Pakbuild tutorial here); there are some good graphics out there that can be useful for all scifi mods overall if they can be imported to Civ4Col which should not be too hard.

edit: for the new version of 2071 I have been working on a Design Document which I've posted using Google Docs, doing careful planning to make sure all the new Yields, Terrains, Features etc are going to be well balanced for gameplay. You can take a look at this for a basic overview of what is planned (it's a big multi-tab spreadsheet but not all complete yet), and also look through some of the XML I put on sourceforge. Most of the structure base XML files for this content have been generated and can be downloaded/viewed from the new 2071 git branch on sourceforge; as a result most of what needs to be done can be focused on editing these already existing XML files to enable fun, balanced, and playable content for the game. I'm hoping this will be a lot less hassle than having to manually create everything from scratch, meaning you can start making progress quickly on a fun and playable mod.

Should I delete A new hope module then? Once we need it eventually, we can create it again. That might even be easier than moving the future updates made to col2071, though both are fairly easy.

Sure I think that sounds reasonable, since once base 2071 branch is well developed with some base scifi graphics in place it would become easy to create a git Fork using that as a base to facilitate development of other scifi themed mods.

Maybe it would be a good idea to invite kodemunkey into col2071 as well since he too talked about forking col2071 into his own space mod. I imagine it would be easier to make a space mod if we wait to fork until the mod is playable or semi playable. The very least it would likely be a good idea to have shared work in fundamentals like space terrain development, astroids and whatever we can come up with in that regard.

Sure that would be great if he's willing to help with it too. I havent heard anything since his initial post so don't know if he's still around, but could surely use any additional help we can get.

Regarding the space terrain, I think how I had accomplished this in the old mod was to nerf one of the XML settings for sea level to zero so as to totally eliminate all water anywhere. I can no longer seem to find that XML setting but should be able to with some more searching; however that would have the effect of eliminating all potential for any actual water/lakes to appear on the planets. I had wanted to try including a Domain for Space tiles using Androrc's Space Domain modcomp
which would enable Space and Oceans to co-exist on the map, do you think that is feasible to merge in or should be left until later?

That gave me an idea. We could add race to units. We can then make race specific graphics for each profession/unit.

We can also make race specific abilities or modifiers, like Gungans can gain production bonus in swamp/water and possible better move. Maybe promotions could be used for this purpose. Free and prohibited promotions based on race could make the game way more diverse. If we prohibit professions for certain races as well, then it would really get diverse.

New units grown from cities will then be the same race as the city meaning a city with one human and 3 wookies will make 3 wookies out of 4 new units on average as a bit of randomness enters here.

While this may not be that complex from a DLL point of view, I fear that graphics will kill the idea due to way too high workload. It would solve the problem of having standard/muslim/viking/etc versions of the same unit in M:C though.

Those sound like good ideas; mods like FfH2 and Master of Mana do use Race Promotion successfully, with each unit having a single Race Promotion with certain special benefits (that Race can also be a prereq for certain other promotions). I think they also have included the ability for Promotions to affect graphics. Though as you point out there are too many different Profession+Race combos to create custom graphics for every possible combination.

 

[Nightinggale]

Sure that would be great if he's willing to help with it too. I havent heard anything since his initial post so don't know if he's still around, but could surely use any additional help we can get.

The last thing he said was something about being busy with university and that he would start modding when he get more free time. Considering that the exam season isn't over I have no reason to say that he will not stick with that plan and show up eventually.

Regarding the space terrain, I think how I had accomplished this in the old mod was to nerf one of the XML settings for sea level to zero so as to totally eliminate all water anywhere. I can no longer seem to find that XML setting but should be able to with some more searching; however that would have the effect of eliminating all potential for any actual water/lakes to appear on the planets. I had wanted to try including a Domain for Space tiles using Androrc's Space Domain modcomp
which would enable Space and Oceans to co-exist on the map, do you think that is feasible to merge in or should be left until later?

I would love to get a new domain working, with or without Androrc's code. I looked at it once, but only briefly. I need to dig into it at some point, but not right now.

Naturally ocean code with waves should be for oceans. We will need to convert the current ocean into DOMAIN_SPACE.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

I updated the first post, hopefully to bring things up to date. If I should say anything else there let me know and I will. I have a few more ideas and suggestions to possible discuss.

If we can add fighters like in BtS, wouldn't we need Anti-Air units too? So this would have to be a double addition, I noticed looking through the XML files of the old Star Wars mod that they used the AT-AT for an Anti-Air unit.

Could "founding fathers" be used to unlock a special unit? An example would be the "founding father" Han Solo, who could unlock the special unit "Millennium Falcon" which could be restricted to only one unit allowed. Is that even possible?

Here is another question, could space units be made graphically unique (or physically) by civilization? This would allow the Empire to use star destroyers and the Rebels to use Mon Calamari cruisers and the Naboo to use shiny space ships...

Just a few random ideas I want to put down for now, but right now I need to figure out how to make myself useful. Any ideas orlanth?

 

[Kailric]

On the Idea of "Race" units, the code is already there mostly to do this. For example we create a Wookie unit as normal and have all his Profession art assigned. This Wookie Unit is then allowed by all pertinent Civs. We would just need to add code that allowed Wookies to be produced from Food if the City has Wookies already.

To get your first Wookies you would need to acquire a City either through conquest or diplomacy, that already had Wookies. Or, you could build City Infrastructure that attracts Wookies through Immigration. Or, you could Hire Wookies as Mercenaries.

I've thought about doing something like this for M:C were the surrounding Natives would join the Immigration que if Certain criteria were met or you can hire mercenaries. As long as your Civ isn't blocked from using the Unit then you will be able to use it as is.

 

[Kailric]

If we can add fighters like in BtS, wouldn't we need Anti-Air units too? So this would have to be a double addition, I noticed looking through the XML files of the old Star Wars mod that they used the AT-AT for an Anti-Air unit.

They have an AT-AT!! How exciting, do they have the AT-ST? One of my favorite scenes is when Chewy comes busting up from the Scout Walker to Han Solo's surprise (if I remember the scene correctly)

Could "founding fathers" be used to unlock a special unit? An example would be the "founding father" Han Solo, who could unlock the special unit "Millennium Falcon" which could be restricted to only one unit allowed. Is that even possible?

Yes, they already spawn units, so just need to make the Falcon a unique unit for that purpose.

Here is another question, could space units be made graphically unique (or physically) by civilization? This would allow the Empire to use star destroyers and the Rebels to use Mon Calamari cruisers and the Naboo to use shiny space ships...

Yes, the code is already there to do that, just set a UNITCLASS_CRUSIER and give each Civ its own Unit for that class.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

Yes I understand what you are saying about Wookies, but it was already mentioned that it would be hard because of all the needed art. My question pertains more to, would it be practical to have different art (and maybe specs like strength or speed) for the different space units? This would just be a matter of having different graphics for each civilization per unit correct? (I.E. for a frigate you could have the Correlian Corevette for the Rebels, and the Tartan Cruiser for the Empire, etc) If we could make the units physically different we could have some really cool things happen, like a random event that allows the Rebels to hijack a Imperial Star Destroyer or other ship.

Whoops looks like you answered some questions while I was typing...

 

[Nightinggale]

On the Idea of "Race" units, the code is already there mostly to do this. For example we create a Wookie unit as normal and have all his Profession art assigned. This Wookie Unit is then allowed by all pertinent Civs. We would just need to add code that allowed Wookies to be produced from Food if the City has Wookies already.

To get your first Wookies you would need to acquire a City either through conquest or diplomacy, that already had Wookies. Or, you could build City Infrastructure that attracts Wookies through Immigration. Or, you could Hire Wookies as Mercenaries.

I've thought about doing something like this for M:C were the surrounding Natives would join the Immigration que if Certain criteria were met or you can hire mercenaries. As long as your Civ isn't blocked from using the Unit then you will be able to use it as is.

I don't think it would be 100% the same. The idea with race would be that you could have one expert farmer and then you could add race to that one unit without making more. He could then have different graphics and production bonuses according to race.

The result is that new growth unit will have a combo of unit type and race, which would be really complex if we have a unit for each race instead.

 

[Kailric]

Yes I understand what you are saying about Wookies, but it was already mentioned that it would be hard because of all the needed art.

It all depends on how many military professions you have. How many would there be?

Officer, Soldier, Trooper perhaps? It would be simple to make weapons and skins for only a few Professions.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

I don't know at this point really, what would make sense for Star Wars? Trooper, Officer, Guard? They could mean many things... not to mention the possibility of riders for beasts, etc. You could have one mounted profession one strong defensive and one good offensive unit, similar to the base game but better. Or you could make it even better...

 

[Nightinggale]

Should I delete A new hope module then? Once we need it eventually, we can create it again. That might even be easier than moving the future updates made to col2071, though both are fairly easy.

I would like to get PatriotNorwood's answer to this question before doing anything.

 

[Kailric]

I don't think it would be 100% the same. The idea with race would be that you could have one expert farmer and then you could add race to that one unit without making more. He could then have different graphics and production bonuses according to race.

The result is that new growth unit will have a combo of unit type and race, which would be really complex if we have a unit for each race instead.

Making custom Race units for every Expert or Master in the game would be a major undertaking. Perhaps a Civilian promotion system with Promotion Icons would be better. In the City screen you can see what promotions units have. Perhaps a special Expert Icon could be attached to the Unit's city screen graphic, like the Locked graphic attaches to a unit.

I don't know at this point really, what would make sense for Star Wars? Trooper, Officer, Guard? They could mean many things... not to mention the possibility of riders for beasts, etc. You could have one mounted profession one strong defensive and one good offensive unit, similar to the base game but better. Or you could make it even better...

Also the Idea of Pilots and Crews for units like AT-AT and Tie-Fighters. We discussed this issue in depth in the World History mod thread with many varying ideas.

I am not up on my Star Wars lore but I would keep it simple like your suggestions to start with.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

I would like to get PatriotNorwood's answer to this question before doing anything.

Sure, sounds fine to me that way once 2071 is completed it will be ready to be cloned into "A New Hope". As long as everyone is fine with that decision go ahead and delete it.

Yes Kailric, a simple start would be best and then it could build from there if needed.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

Oh, and another odd thing I just thought of. Would "ANH" be the short name? or maybe "NH"?