A tech tree oddity

[toh6wy]

There are two potential contradictions in the tech tree that have actually been there since vanilla Civ 3, and I think even in Civ 2. One is that you can research Mathematics in the Ancient Age and build Catapults - before you've researched the Wheel. I've never heard of a mobile catapult w/o wheels, and the Catapult graphic is no exception, but I suppose it can be done, so that's fairly minor. What really bugs me, though, is that you can research Mass Production in the Industrial Age and build Carriers - before you've researched Flight.
One thing Civ 4 could use are units, improvements, wonders, etc. that have more than one tech as a prerequisite to building it. Then both of these could be fixed.

 

[Grille]

Hmm, the mathematics(catapult)/wheel issue is more strange than carriers w/o flight to me.


A catapult uses actually wheels, though they have not been invented yet - must be a patent thing . Maybe the catapult manufacturers made wheels by accident and named them 'some spinning stuff that makes our catapult go forward'. Then a wise guy (actually a whole clan of wise guys) came along and claimed the name 'wheel' for this invention. A time span of min 200 years (4turns) for brainstorming was needed just to find a name for that spinning invention... (alternatively, buy that name patent from neighbour).

Mass Production (for carriers), however, only enable the possiblity to build really big sea-going vessels that could theoretically serve as aircraft carrier. AFAIK the first carrier was not build from scratch, but a modified freighter. Of course, you would not plant a run-way on a deck of a freighter unless you have the idea to start planes from it (while you don't know about planes). But then again, in R/L, planes capable to start/land on a carrier were not available while the first carrier was already there.

For example, German navy commissioned a carrier ('Hindenburg') during WW2, but no suitable fighter had been designed before. They used that ship to test out the specs of a carrier-based future plane. That was like a carrier w/o planes available.

Hope this helps.


Now explain to me - how can I use locomotives on railroad tracks to transport my troops w/o knowing steam power??

 

[TheEndIsNear]

Actually, in Civ 2 you could discover the automobile before getting the wheel!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Grille: You've got diesel trains!

 

[Yaype]

I don't really know why you would come up with the carrier before the plane, but a catapult existing before the wheel doesn't sound too weird to me. AFAIK, most siege weapons in ancient times were built on-site rather than at the home of the attacking army. So since you are already at the site of where the catapult will be built, there is no need to transport it.

Of course, Civ3 is not real life, and in Civ, catapults are mobile, so maybe that theory goes out the window. Oh well.

 

[sealman]

Originally posted by Grille

Now explain to me - how can I use locomotives on railroad tracks to transport my troops w/o knowing steam power??

look below the train. Do you see all those little legs moving. Slave power!

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Grille: You've got diesel trains!

Oh yeah, I use my olive plantages to make some bio-diesel fuel.

Or I feed those olives to...

Originally posted by sealman
look below the train. Do you see all those little legs moving. Slave power!

 

[redstoner]

Originally posted by Grille:
For example, German navy commissioned a carrier ('Hindenburg') during WW2, but no suitable fighter had been designed before. They used that ship to test out the specs of a carrier-based future plane. That was like a carrier w/o planes available.

The first successful launch of an aircraft from a ship occured even before WW 1. Pilot Eugene Ely launched a plane from the deck of the USS Birmingham in 1910. He also completed the first successful naval landing in 1911, landing a plane on a platform installed on the USS Pennsylvania. The success of these two attempts prompted the US Navy to begin designs for incorporating platforms onto it vessels in order to launch aircraft.

 

[ShiplordAtvar]

Originally posted by toh6wy
There are two potential contradictions in the tech tree that have actually been there since vanilla Civ 3, and I think even in Civ 2. One is that you can research Mathematics in the Ancient Age and build Catapults - before you've researched the Wheel. I've never heard of a mobile catapult w/o wheels, and the Catapult graphic is no exception, but I suppose it can be done, so that's fairly minor. What really bugs me, though, is that you can research Mass Production in the Industrial Age and build Carriers - before you've researched Flight.
One thing Civ 4 could use are units, improvements, wonders, etc. that have more than one tech as a prerequisite to building it. Then both of these could be fixed.

How about switching the tech prerequisite for the aircraft carrier from Mass Production to Flight?

 

[sealman]

Originally posted by ShiplordAtvar


How about switching the tech prerequisite for the aircraft carrier from Mass Production to Flight?

That makes too much sense.

 

[SanPellegrino]

Originally posted by TheEndIsNear
Actually, in Civ 2 you could discover the automobile before getting the wheel!

yes, I remember that one too

 

[The Last Conformist]

Somehow, I never came round to researching The Wheel in CivII.

 

[toh6wy]

Originally posted by Grille
AFAIK the first carrier was not build from scratch, but a modified freighter. Of course, you would not plant a run-way on a deck of a freighter unless you have the idea to start planes from it (while you don't know about planes). But then again, in R/L, planes capable to start/land on a carrier were not available while the first carrier was already there.

For example, German navy commissioned a carrier ('Hindenburg') during WW2, but no suitable fighter had been designed before. They used that ship to test out the specs of a carrier-based future plane. That was like a carrier w/o planes available.

But the thing is, not only does a Carrier look like a carrier in Civ 3, it acts like a carrier. You can't use it for freighting or anything else useful until you get Flight. As for your Hindenburg carrier, that was obviously built *after* the Germans learned how to build aircraft. In Civ 3, it would be like a civ builds a Carrier after they've researched Flight, and they just haven't built any aircraft yet. It's not the same as building a Carrier, which has the obvious sole purpose of carrying aircraft, before you knew about Flight.

 

[ybbor]

i'm surprised no one brought up the masonry, pyramids/pottery granery

 

[nmcul]

How about the fact that you can build Coal Plants before you research electricity?

 

[Cuivienen]

Mass heating, of course.

 

[Wakboth]

The coal plants thing isn't that unrealistic really. Coal power to drive machinery was used for quite some time before electricity started to be used. What do you think a steam engine is? You just use gears and belts to move rotational energy from the plant to where it's needed instead of wires carrying electricity to motors.

I've always wondered why you can have chariots even without the horse resource (or getting horseback riding as a tech). I can kinda understand the tech thing (stirrups, saddles, breeding and all that), but if you don't have horses at all, what's pulling your chariots?

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by toh6wy


But the thing is, not only does a Carrier look like a carrier in Civ 3, it acts like a carrier. You can't use it for freighting or anything else useful until you get Flight. As for your Hindenburg carrier, that was obviously built *after* the Germans learned how to build aircraft. In Civ 3, it would be like a civ builds a Carrier after they've researched Flight, and they just haven't built any aircraft yet. It's not the same as building a Carrier, which has the obvious sole purpose of carrying aircraft, before you knew about Flight.

You are right, of course. I was just trying to find a link to R/L.
Civ3 is a game . We imaging some R/L stuff behind it here and there, but the game needs its own rules (for balancing etc).
As other posters already pointed out, you could find a lot things that do not fit to real life.
If the carrier issue really annoys you, use the editor.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Wakboth: Unless you're playing some mod, Chariots do require horses. And the tech's simply "the wheel"; wheels can certainly be useful even sans horses.