Abortions, Executions and Hamburgers: A Brief Survey

[GhostWriter16]

Even a woman doesn't generally know she's pregnant for up to a month so and that's the woman in question. Is there some magic soul infusion that occurs between conception and the woman noticing she's missed her period?

I'd assume the child gets a soul at conception.

 

[Haseri]

What about possible natural abortions that might happen before the woman even notices? Does it have a soul then?

 

[kiwitt]

By the time its detectable, its a life.

I'd assume the child gets a soul at conception.

Sorry ... it's not a life until it is born ... i.e. taken it's first breath.

And this is according to the bible.

Then the LORD God formed a man[a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

- Genesis:2:7

Also please show me a quote from the bible where a fetus is a "living being".
Hint; you won't find one

 

[GhostWriter16]

What about possible natural abortions that might happen before the woman even notices? Does it have a soul then?

Possibly but its not her fault.

Sorry ... it's not a life until it is born ... i.e. taken it's first breath. And this is according to the bible - Genesis:2:7

http://www.eadshome.com/BibleandAbortion.htm

Also, Adam was unique because he was literally dirt before he was formed. He wasn't even alive in any form.

 

[kiwitt]

But where does it say a "fetus" is a life. Nowhere.

It needs to breath to be a life and there are few bible passages where this is said.
(Job 33:4, Ezekiel 37:5&6).

More biblical commentary on fetuses can be found here, here, and here.

Note: For many phrases in the Bible, another can be found contradicting it.

 

[Ajidica]

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life. [Editor's note: Read more detailed pro-choice and pro-life analyses of Exodus 21.]

Spoiler size :

Together, pro-choice Christians and Jews base their views on these biblical principles:

Stewardship. Genesis tells us we are created in God's image and that with that gift comes the responsibility for ".every living thing that moves upon the earth" (1:27-28). It follows that, as moral agents, women have the God-given obligation to make decisions about the course of action that seems most responsible in cases of unwelcome pregnancy.

Free will. Created in God's image, we are endowed with the ability to make moral choices. This ability is the very basis of an individual's dignity and autonomy.

Personhood. The Bible's portrait of personhood centers on the woman and man who bear the image of God and live in responsible relation to God.

The sanctity of life. All religions revere life. It is because we believe in the sanctity of all human life that we are sensitive to the effects of an unwanted pregnancy on women and families. We pray for a world in which every child is wanted, loved, and cared for. Because we believe in the sanctity of human life that we believe a child has the right to enter the world wanted and loved. Because we believe in the sanctity of human life we are sensitive to the effects of an unwanted pregnancy upon individual women, upon their loved ones and their families, and we recognize that they, not we, must determine what is best for those directly concerned and involved.

Respect. The Bible places full responsibility for procreation in the hands of parents. Requiring a woman to complete a pregnancy against her will devalues motherhood and shows lack of respect for women.

Religious Liberty. Religious Americans honor the dignity and value of all human life but recognize that different religious traditions hold a variety of views regarding when life begins and when ensoulment occurs. In this nation all are free to live according to their consciences and religious beliefs. No one religious philosophy should govern the law for all Americans.

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2003/01/The-Biblical-Basis-Forbeing-Pro-Choice.aspx?p=1

 

[kiwitt]

Thanks for that.

And in anticipation of some more biblical commentary, as I said, "For many phrases in the Bible, another can be found contradicting it.", and it can become a see-sawing argument. This is one of the reasons I don't believe in what it says. I only bring it up, when many people use it to justify their position. i.e "soul"

 

[GhostWriter16]

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2003/01/The-Biblical-Basis-Forbeing-Pro-Choice.aspx?p=1

Actually no that's not correct. If the baby was BORN EARLY but not harmed, then it would be a fine, but if the baby died so would the man who killed him. "If any further damage follows..."

 

[civ_king]

Sorry ... it's not a life until it is born ... i.e. taken it's first breath.

And this is according to the bible. - Genesis:2:7

Also please show me a quote from the bible where a fetus is a "living being".
Hint; you won't find one

So according to you it is okay to abort the fetus while the woman is in labor?

The reason you wont find a Bible quote about fetuses is because the Bible refers to them as infants and babes.

Abortions:N The sanctity of human life starts at conception
Capital Punishment:N And the sanctity doesn't end
Consumption of Animals:Y Consuming animal is fine, but they should be treated well

 

[Traitorfish]

Abortions:N The sanctity of human life starts at conception
Capital Punishment:N And the sanctity doesn't end

Ah, an adherent of the "Consistent Life Ethic"?

 

[civ_king]

Ah, an adherent of the "Consistent Life Ethic"?

Yes, it is the logical thing.
The death penalty is too flawed to be usable. And the unborn child has done nothing wrong, I believe we need to correct the problems that cause there to be a need for abortions.

 

[_random_]

Yes, it is the logical thing.
The death penalty is too flawed to be usable. And the unborn child has done nothing wrong, I believe we need to correct the problems that cause there to be a need for abortions.

Well said.

 

[Ajidica]

Actually no that's not correct. If the baby was BORN EARLY but not harmed, then it would be a fine, but if the baby died so would the man who killed him. "If any further damage follows..."

Source for that? In the last thread about abortion I thought it was resolved that the wording of that passage from Exodus only applied if the man had attacked her or killed the fetus without her consent.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Source for that? In the last thread about abortion I thought it was resolved that the wording of that passage from Exodus only applied if the man had attacked her or killed the fetus without her consent.

Well, I guess it depends on which translation you use. I'll look it up in the ESV (Which we consider the most accurate translation) and come back to you.

EDIT: I just found it

"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

I do believe this implies to the woman OR to the child.

I guess its debatable looking at that verse alone, but if you look at the other references in Scripture of life beginning at conception, it kind of fails. Abortion, according to the Bible, is murder.

 

[Ajidica]

When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman

Forgive, but I interpret this as attacking a women so as to cause a miscarriage.
What is the OT's opinion on murder? I could have sworn it was stiffer then a fine.

but if you look at the other references in Scripture of life beginning at conception,

Did you even read my link?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Forgive, but I interpret this as attacking a women so as to cause a miscarriage.
What is the OT's opinion on murder? I could have sworn it was stiffer then a fine.

No, it means that if she gives birth prematurely, but the baby survives, then its a fine.

Did you even read my link?

Yes.

 

[Ajidica]

No, it means that if she gives birth prematurely, but the baby survives, then its a fine.

Okay, so then what does the OT have to say about it when the baby comes out dead? For the purposes of the argument, I'm going with your interpretation of the 'strive' part.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Okay, so then what does the OT have to say about it when the baby comes out dead? For the purposes of the argument, I'm going with your interpretation of the 'strive' part.

"If any further injury follows (To the baby or the woman) then it shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, burn for burn."

 

[Ajidica]

Passage number?
For further refrence, whenever you quote the bible please include passage number even if not explicitly requested.

 

[_random_]

Since this has been turned into a debate about a Christian perspective, I'll throw in my two cents: If you're looking for direct condemnation of abortion in the Bible, you won't find it. It would be better to turn to some historical Christian thought to show that the Church has always condemned abortion.