About GP farms

warphan

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
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Hy all!

I'm moving up to immortal I have a question about GPFs. I never really specialised any of my cities to GPF. Does it worth it? I mean I always thought that a fully cottaged city is more useful than a few great people. Thanks for any advices ;)

PS: sorry if my English isn't that good :)
 
A single Great Scientist can you earn 1200 :science: in a single turn by bulbing Philosophy. How many cottages will do that for you?

However, that Scientist is done for once you bulb. Then what?

The ideal, IMO, is to specialize CITIES, not empires. A city with 3-4 good resources should serve as a GP farm, while a city with not much food but lots of riverside grasslands should serve as a cottage city. There's an excellent guide on city specialization in the strategy forum, look it up.
 
To maximize GP you should have two GPFs in the beginning. And as soon as you build NE that second cities will hardly ever keep up in GPP production. In most cases early the GP farm consists of 2 scientists (+NE) unless you have the Glib or Caste.
 
i believe you won't beat immortal regulary if you don't use GPs all the time. GPs serve for

a) bulbs. bulbing philosophy slows the AI down towards liberalism, especially if you're first to philosophy and found taoism - that will lower the chance of the AI to research philo significantly. therefore, if you're first to taoism, you're in control of the lib-race, and that can give you much better free-techs from lib which can be crucial on immortal level. nationalism -> constitution -> democracy - if you get democracy you have saved alot of beakers. only an example ofc.

b) "special" purposes. academies are essential, and you'll want to have more than one city with an academy especially if your empire isn't huge and you'll want to maximize the beaker output. GEs can finish a certain wonder for you, as you'll know already - this alone can make or break a game, with the great library for example. merchants give you ALOT of gold you can burn on unit upgrades, trades for techs or quick teching towards a certain tech, everything a simple commerce city would need ALOT of improvements for. priests are GREAT if you just settle them, +5 commerce multiplied by banks, grocers, markets and maybe even wallstreet and two hammers on top ... artists are somewhat less useful, but at least they can be used for

c) golden ages. switching civics anarchy-free is HUGE, plus the commerce/hammer bonus - alot of golden ages can win the game for you, and beside taj there isn't any other way to achieve a golden age.

remember that especially on the higher levels it's not always about the long-term usefulness but rather about the "how do i get an edge towards the AI that i can use to win the game?". on immortal+deity it's about surviving first, then to hopefully get a tech advantage of any kind, and then to win the game with this advantage. especially bulbs are somewhat umatched here, and so are golden ages. good usage of great persons carries you through the midgame almost by itself. and finally, just because you've made a city a GP farm that doesn't mean that it can't serve for other purposes later in the game, for example as a minor production city or globe theater draft city. food can be converted in pretty much anything you like, so when the main time of great persons is over and you're heading towards the lategame you can use your GP farm for pretty much anything you need.
 
There are three basic approaches to GP production which, unsurprisingly stem from how you get them.

A. Production and wonders. You can amass a lot of GPP/turn off of wonders and that can quickly farm a lot of GP. The downside here is that you lose fine control of the pool and things can be a mixed bag for the spec you want vs the spec you need. Mixing in NE may not be the best, e.g. abusing the synergy from Rep, B, and settled specs makes for a strong IW/Oxford city which the NE just doesn't match.

B. Food and specs. Pretty much any three food resource city will do for this type. Just get your slots, build the NE and go. Commonly people will run a lot of scientists in the early game for bulbing down the middle path. A less popular, but still viable option is to build the NE in a high food/shrine city (most often an AI cap you've taken), run mass merchants, and settle the merchants to keep your slider high and to have a nice WS location late game. Regardless a high food GPfarm is pretty flexible - you can mass any spec you can slot on command and you can easily get anything from caste. Dropping in the NP post bio or the globe at drama can be quite helpful (though the Globe may be better used in a dedicated draft city).

C. NP and forest preserves. You have to wait longer to get this one up, but it can be trivial to get 10 specs with this (tundra forest becomes useful). If you aren't snagging wonders this can make a very strong mid-late game GP farm if you spent the early game working cottages. Some of the best candidates for a NP/NE GP farm are astro islands that still have plenty of forest. The downside is you have to wait a long time before you can use this and when you do you may be lacking in slots, the upshot is that you can run a lot of specs without needing all the :health: and :) infra.

What to accomplish with your GP, once you have a steady production?
1. Settle. As alluded :hammers: specs (GE, GPr, GSc) all get good synergy with Rep/B/Oxford/IW in the cap. With stone or marble this can take you a long way quick (mids is very helpful as is the ToA, AW, and HG).

2. Bulb. The bulb shots to philo (GSc), theo (GPr), edu (GSc), etc. are quick ways to get a tech lead you can trade. On immort or higher it becomes increasingly difficult to keep up in technology in the mid game. Mass cottages in theory give more than GSc, but the GSc gives you a monopoly tech now ... which comes with its own modifier when you can trade it to every AI.

3. GA. One of the keys to good GP farming is establishing a supply of diverse GP late game. Getting a 4th GA requires you get 4 differing GP and that can be hard to do if you are just sitting on wonders with NE. You can get some mileage from the free specs in the tech tree (Music, Econ, Physics, communism, and fusion), but there is value in a flexible GP pool, particularly if you can swing it without caste.

4. Corporations. If you game is going to last another 50 turns (ballpark) you likely can get a lot of mileage from founding corporations in your WS city and running those in FM.

5. Special uses. The oxford paired academy is pretty classic (though I think somewhat overrated). Using a GE to snag a free wonder (e.g. Verseille on a new land mass you have just begun to settle) can be pretty handy. Trade missions can buy for timely mass upgrades or let you deficit research at key times. On the flip side, these uses may be completely underwhelming (e.g. most culture bombs outside of dedicated culture shots).

Hope this helps.
 
well, i have to admit that mithrandir covered my thoughts somewhat better and comprehensive, i've focused more on the "common" ways to use GPs. still, i'm still surprised you're on your way to immortal, how did you manage to get all through emperor without proper GP usage? i had tons of games where i managed to get out of a hole with GPs, without the game would've at least become ALOT harder...
 
I've played a lot of emperor and immortal games (although on huge 18civ maps mostly) without an actual GP farm. More often than not there simply is no suitable location or I need that location for a production/cottage city.

You can easily get 2-3 scientists early in the game without actually specializing a city on running specialists: One to build an Academy in the capital and the rest to either bulb Philosophy/Education or build secondary Academies (depending on the game).
 
A fully cottaged city is great.

A settled great scientist is, essentially, the same as a town for research. Better with Rep, plus can give culture.
 
thanks very much for your answers :goodjob:
I guess I should overthink GPF concept. I'm rather a wild warmonger trying to balance rex with my economy. This worked until immortal but here I tend to get back in tech in the mid game. Maybe GP usage is the key to improve my gameplay :crazyeye:! I've just always felt sorry for those nice tiles - building farms on them instead of those juicy cottages... :faint: Any more advice is welcomed :)
 
post-biology farms+consitution are alot more juicy than cottages, mainly because you can run other civics than free speech or bureaucracy and still have great beakers no matter the slider - non-financial riverside cottage post-PP = 7 commerce, only with FS they get really worthy. ofc, that's not the time to bulldoze all your towns for farms, but i think you underestimate specialists regarding research alot. rep+free speech+caste = highest beaker output possible (at least for bigger empires, smaller ones BC instead of FS), but as a warmonger you'll want to use the slider for culture, at least until you have police state.
 
Well, you could run Representation + Nationhood + Caste System if you wanted to (or are forced to) wage war without hurting your economy that way, but I think that would be a lot more limiting than running Universal Suffrage + Free Speech + Emancipation.

Also, to make full use of those farms you need two citizens for each grassland farm, one to work it and one as the specialist. How do you manage happiness (and to some extent health) for so many citizens?
 
use alot of overlap, which means smaller cities. i'm not a huge fan of SE, pretty much a cottage spammer myself, just wanted to point out that specialists are alot more useful than stated. if you want to maximize your land you'll be often forced to use alot of specialists, for example when there are alot of food resources you just can't grab with a single city but still will have alot of overlap. using specialists isn't mandatory, but i find myself having lots of them in the midgame/lategame anyway, just because it's better to run two scientists instead of letting the city grow into more seatiles and have trouble with happiness/health, as you mentioned.
civ on the higher levels, in my experience, is alot about "instant use" rather than "long term use", that's why you build cities next to food even when it'll be less usefull later on this way, it can contribute alot faster. specialists are, to some extend, comparable to this.
 
My GP Farm advice:

1. Pick a city with a lot of food and (if possible) a few production tiles. Libraries can be whipped, but you will probably need some production for the National Epic and other, specialist-unlocking buildings. Your starting location will often fit the bill.

2. If your capital IS your GP farm, consider moving the Palace when you have Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy boosts hammers and commerce output, and your GP farm isn't really going to be focused on those.

3. Caste System is key to a really good early-to-mid-game GP farm. Hereditary Rule as well, to allow for a higher population. A location with, say, 2 Fish and 3 Clams allows for 2 specialists per Fish and 4 (5 with food deficit) from the Clams... but not if your happiness cap is 5.

4 Work on stacking bonuses to GP production. There is a principle known as 'deficit research' - you crank up your research rate once you have libraries and the 25% boost they give. Similarly, I will try to run as many specialists as possible during a Golden Age (+100% GPP production) and switch to Pacifism (+100% GPP production), if I can. Throw in the National Epic (+100%), or maybe being Philosophical (+100%)... and the GPP can really pile up. So long as you have a granary in your GP farm, you can run a food deficit in order to get a couple extra specialists (worth 9-15 GPP/turn, each) up.

5. First GScientist: Academy. After that, usually settle, other Academies, or bulb, up to about Education. I will occasionally use Engineers for big Wonder builds. Almost everything else gets burned up in Golden Ages, unless I'm in Free Market and can snag Mining Inc/Sushi. But YMMV... I play on big maps with big empires, so Golden Ages are very strong in my games.
 
I've started a new game. The neighbouring civ's capital made a nice GPF and I have already got 2 academies which really made up for the "missing" cottages :)! Further GSs will probably be settled or rested for philo bulbing.
I'm currently playing as Hannibal, but I'm thinking about Elizabeth. Is Philosophical more useful than Charismatic in this case? :) bonus can be compensated by HR but the -25% xp is very useful for a warmonger.
 
Well, if you're going to go for Great People, then a trait that increases the rate at which you get them is nice, yes. :) Going from 17 to 9 turns for your first one in particular can be very significant. As for whether or not it's worth losing Charismatic, well, Philosophical will help you tech faster, which improves your odds of getting a tech mismatch (e.g. rifles vs. longbows), which is so much stronger than a few extra promotions from Charismatic that it's not even funny.

I think Pericles is Philosophical / Charismatic; you could play as him and get the best of both worlds. You don't really need Financial.
 
Pericles is Phil/Creative ...

form the 2 leaders your mentioning i get the idea that you might be using Financial supported Cottages as a one-trick pony cane to support yourself on
 
I'd pick Spiritual over Philosophical when it comes to specialist economies - or for that matter hybrid economies.
 
I'd pick Spiritual over Philosophical when it comes to specialist economies - or for that matter hybrid economies.

Why? isn't the 100% bonus a good idea? I get that being able to switch civics and micro manage your economy is powerful, but isn't 100% faster GP production a little better in this case? Although in general I'm personally doubtful as to the staying power of the philosophical trait as GP's lose a lot of their value late game. Anyways I'm just curious, why is spiritual better for a SE?
 
Why? isn't the 100% bonus a good idea? I get that being able to switch civics and micro manage your economy is powerful, but isn't 100% faster GP production a little better in this case? Although in general I'm personally doubtful as to the staying power of the philosophical trait as GP's lose a lot of their value late game. Anyways I'm just curious, why is spiritual better for a SE?

No. Being able to cycle whip under OR (theo) -> Pac is much stronger; add to this B/Nat/Vass, PS/Rep, and of course caste/slave itself (possibly even SP/anything else if you hit a sweet spot) can massively increase your output of far more valuable resources. All philo does is march you faster up the curve of diminishing returns; useful but not nearly so much as being able to better exploit everything else in the game.

Derakon: nah almost - CRIII cannons out the door, even if you are whipping them, tend to be better than rifles (especially if vass is cheaper to run than nat). CRIII vs gunpowder is just murder.
 

@OP: I think with any of these traits your milage will vary, everyone plays differently and different situations may be more conducive to different strategies. If you go 'Spiritual' you need to really be interested in the accumulation of small efficiencies, the level of control you get over your civ with Spiritual is profound, but if you're more of a steady as she goes type you may just want to leave your government as is for periods of time. If that's the case then Spiritual will be somewhat less useful for you but still advantageous, one perk being the ability to swap to new civics the instant they become available instead of swapping in multiple civics to reduce anarchy (not an issue with Spiritual).

Try them both, see what you think!
 
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