Affinities; or: why 2 + 1 does not equal 3

[CraziFuzzy]

Regarding the affinities, it's like they created three affinities because they felt needed at least three affinities. In many ways, however, the three they created are not really that distinct. Purity and Supremacy are the same in many ways, and both are opposed to harmony, but they don't really oppose each other on any significant front. The fluff of pure humanity inside giant robots is really not that different than augmented humanity programming giant robots.

I think it should have been more of a two component affinity system, one dealing with how your people regard the value of humanity, and one how they value native life.

Most actions, whether land development, research, combat, etc, should feed values (plus or minus) into one or both of those value axes.

 

[thelastleonida]

This is a good one

I proposed something similar (see: Dynamic Affinity), did you check it?

 

[CraziFuzzy]

I proposed something similar (see: Dynamic Affinity), did you check it?

Yeah, I saw that, dynamic is important for either system, but I think the affinities need to conflict in more apparent ways, and decisions need to be made. Currently, the only thing stopping you from simply building up all 3 affinities is game-time, which is a silly situation. A 'choice' with no consequences is pointless.

 

[Chaos Blade]

Yeah, I saw that, dynamic is important for either system, but I think the affinities need to conflict in more apparent ways, and decisions need to be made. Currently, the only thing stopping you from simply building up all 3 affinities is game-time, which is a silly situation. A 'choice' with no consequences is pointless.

Well, same goes for the "virtue" screen, they have no consequences at all an there is an achievement for whomever maxes all four fields... silly is not the word I'd use about that, but this is about affinities.

I agree. they feel wholly artificial, while your actions tend to piss off or not the different affinity leaders it has zero effect on your affinities.
So you can be harmony and a xenocidal monster, for instance.
Then again lack of terraform tools outside of the stupid terrascape limit what you could do and leaves you only with improvement construction, taking down forest and what not, which should remove points from harmony, imho.

actually, is it possible to remove affinity points? depending on this would depend on how to proceed, because while some techs can give you points in an affinity, others could remove them and more your actions, killing aliens, razing nests, attacking affinity players (starting a war) building certain improvements and what not should impact your affinity.
Also, let's talk about affinity resources. we need to get rid of them, honest. it only means you will fight your affinity because they control the same resources you need. instead, lets call them advanced resources and be a requirement.... ALL OF THEM... for the end units and end buildings.
So, for instance, a LEV tank? 1firaxite 1biomas 1floatstone 1 titanium (just to make some use of the strat resources, who are also underutilized)

note: I personally think we should rename firaxite into something else, it feels mighty arrogant of the game...

 

[KiNg_]

While I do agree about the way you get affinity points being odd, and that there should be techs that remove points but I think the affinities themselves are perfect. They represent different paths of human evolution namely no evolution besides maybe genetic enhancement, alien hybridization and then complete freedom from the human body. Purity and supremacy are actually way more far apart than each other, harmony is actually closer to purity. Supremacy isn't about building human-like robots, their end goal is to completely remove the need of human bodies and upload their conciousnesses (not a word but you get the point) onto a server, making them immortal. Purity AIs will always get angered when you play supremacy, saying that you are losing your humanity. Purity and harmony have more in common because atleast harmony aren't trying to become aliens, just becoming like aliens. Also what's wrong with firaxite? They made the game and put lots of work into it. That's like saying they're arrogant for putting their names in the credits.

 

[jgamefan]

Regarding the affinities, it's like they created three affinities because they felt needed at least three affinities. In many ways, however, the three they created are not really that distinct. Purity and Supremacy are the same in many ways, and both are opposed to harmony, but they don't really oppose each other on any significant front. The fluff of pure humanity inside giant robots is really not that different than augmented humanity programming giant robots.

I think it should have been more of a two component affinity system, one dealing with how your people regard the value of humanity, and one how they value native life.

Most actions, whether land development, research, combat, etc, should feed values (plus or minus) into one or both of those value axes.

This is a very good idea.

There were some earlier threads debating what other affinit(ies) might exist without clear conclusion and adaptability does look like the missing affinity.

I like the way you make it simple by combining low/high Terran affinity with low/high Alien affinity resulting in the total of 4 affinities.

I do wonder whether it will be difficult to implement adaptability as the 4th affinity into the game though...

 

[KiNg_]

The game could use more affinities, but is supremacy not adapting?

 

[CraziFuzzy]

I wouldn't call supremacy 'adapting', more 'overcoming'.

 

[KiNg_]

Good point

 

[KiNg_]

But then what would an adapting affinity be about?

 

[CraziFuzzy]

If you look at my image I posted above, Adapting is where the hybridization lies. That's humans abandoning their 'humanity' and forming human-alien hybrids to survive in the new world (and the old), combining the strengths of both into a singular, new, species group. This contrasts with my new vision for Harmony, which is not necessarily hybridization with the aliens, but teamwork with them. Domestication of the aliens 'animals', use of sentient aliens in 'hostile to human' areas (miasma, xenomass, etc). Still using the strengths of both species group, but separately, and respecting the differences.

 

[KiNg_]

But then purity would have no problem with them and that would go against what it currently is

 

[CraziFuzzy]

It is an opposition matrix. Partial disdain for the sect adjacent to you in either direction, complete disdain for the sect opposite you.

Example:
Purity would be partially against Harmony's preservation of the non-terran environment.
Purity would be very much against Adaptability's perversion of Humans with alien genetics.
Purity would be partially against Supremacies perversion of Humans with augmentations.

 

[KiNg_]

I'd think purity is more against supremacy because they want to completely leave the human body. If you reas the flavour text for emancipation victory it says that the humans are emancipated from their fleshy bodies, supremacy is about straight up uploading your concious into a network

 

[CraziFuzzy]

perhaps, my point was just an example of how you can set up four ideals, that can all find some reason to dislike each other, some more than others.

 

[Potenzo]

I think the three Affinities could be made to work just fine, the problem is that currently the mechanics force confrontation with shared affinities, while permit peace with different ones.

At the minimum, having more points in an Affinity than another Civ should generate progressively greater amounts of hate with that Civ. Beyond that, I'd like to take some of the ideas from Dynamic Affinities to make the different Affinities terraform differently. So Purity should make food and production improvements, Supremacy should make energy and science improvements, and Harmony should raze them all and spread miasma; and all those tile improvements should generate their respective affinity points, and drain opposing affinity points. This would encourage more vicious wars with more raze/plundering when fighting opposing affinities.

 

[MasterDinadan]

Affinity is supposed to be about ones vision for the future of humanity. It has nothing to do with how you treat the aliens.

Purity wants humans to remain as is (which doesn't mean that they want to kill aliens, and it doesn't mean that they won't use machines as tools)
Supremacy wants to turn humans into machines (but they don't necessarily care about the aliens. They aren't machines and are therefore inferior)
Harmony wants to evolve humanity into something new, but still biological (that doesn't mean they have to get along with the native life, but that they should study them and exploit them for the benefit of humanity)

I think your version of Harmony is the same as Purity. If the humans aren't changing themselves, it's Purity, regardless of how they treat the aliens.

 

[Chaos Blade]

I think the three Affinities could be made to work just fine, the problem is that currently the mechanics force confrontation with shared affinities, while permit peace with different ones.

At the minimum, having more points in an Affinity than another Civ should generate progressively greater amounts of hate with that Civ. Beyond that, I'd like to take some of the ideas from Dynamic Affinities to make the different Affinities terraform differently. So Purity should make food and production improvements, Supremacy should make energy and science improvements, and Harmony should raze them all and spread miasma; and all those tile improvements should generate their respective affinity points, and drain opposing affinity points. This would encourage more vicious wars with more raze/plundering when fighting opposing affinities.

I agree on the first. the way the game is set up, you most certainly will go to war with your own affinity than with another, two out of three times, due to thirst for resources and given that, by and large, it is that resource availability that determines your primary affinity, it shows us that this game is a conceptual mess.
First because each affinity has a high ideological content, at least if you go to the pedia.
Second, because all affinities seem to go nuttier the further you get to level 18 affinity, again by lore this. look at the entry on the LEV Destroyer...
Third, each affinity is doing their own thing towards victory. there are no sparks of conflict other than sheer greed of resources, of land, of building an angular throne...

Sure you get a few 'your affinity is not mine and I am worried about it' but it doesn't end up in DoWs either. at least in the lower difficulties, including "normal"


I think affinity resources are a stupid idea, or rarther that you only need your Affinity Resources to build advanced units. they should be an eclectic mix, if favoring your local resource, of different advanced resources (another name for the aff. Resource).
that way you have what the other has and has one more nail towards DoWing...

End games should be more involved than what we currently have. the way it works each faction is closed into itself building their endgame, it makes for a very boring late game. perhaps a good idea would be for the location of the endgame wonder being at preset locations/features of the map (but not only one location in the whole map) for instance the gates need to be in between the tropics and require a certain elevation or the mind flower needing a particular brand of biome or the signal whatever needing an equatorial mountain/hill.
This is a 4x not simcity!

Ah, I went full rant mode, I'll stop here.

 

[Ryoga]

I don't quite agree with your view. The affinities are very diverse among themselves and they aren't quite an invention of Firaxis but established common tropes in science fiction as well as philosophical standpoints on the definition of "humanity".


Supremacy believes that what defines humanity is the consciousness and the body is merely accessory. Thus they get rid of the bodies and upload consciousness on computers.
The last quote of the Supremacy path states that "All previous versions of humanity will no longer be supported as of this update". That shows how "humanity" is for them a concept akin to software.

Harmony is similar to Supremacy in the belief that the mind is what matters, but they believe that the "living being" bit is an integral part of the definition of "human" and consciousnesses uploaded in machines are not. Evolved humans are still human, and evolution (as adaption to the environment) is the natural path for a living being.

Purity on the other hand does not agree with any of that. What defines a human is the totality of human qualities as they are now, including the body, the mind and even their inherent flaws.
To "perfect" a human, to them, equals to change it and make it something different, non human.


In your 2 axis system the only difference between Purity and Harmony is merely ideological, one likes aliens the other does not, there is no difference whatsoever on what to make of "humanity".

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I like to think of hybrid of all three affinities being genetically enhanced supermen filled with nanobots to make them immortal and amazingly good looking.