Affinity progression is too fast!

[Lucius_]

The obvious problem with affinity progression is the game length, but another issue is hybrid unique units.

I really would like to play around with the lower hybrid units like Immortals and Drone Cages, but I always end up overshooting the window where they are useful because hitting 6/6 is so darn easy. Once I have end game infantry and rangers, nearly everything else is overshadowed. Some of the units still have a use, like support units, but really that's just for giggles because your t4 hybrids don't really need the utility they provide. Once the unique upgrade to True etc., they become relevant again, but it still bugs me.

Same can be said about pure affinity units, but to a lesser extent. Once you hit 6 Purity, Battlesuits become irrelevant. T3 units vs pure UU's is less of a difference so the problem is more glaring with hybrids.

 

[Galgus]

This is one reason I'd like less combat strength progression in units and more pronounced abilities: so there aren't odd swings where a unit is better or worse.

The Drone Cage is cool, but it's 5 hp heal per turn if it stays stationary feels next to useless.

It needs either a far stronger heal or a stronger heal and the ability to move before applying it to be relevant IMO.

 

[Halcyon 7]

How about you make the upgrade choices as if(some buffs some nerfs of course while making the units have unique purposes) but unit str modifiers just come in incrementally with each appropriate affinity level. Keeping units in the same pecking order as far as str is concerned from begining to end. I.E that battlesuit is always going to be stronger than a soldier. Upgrade choices and tactical opportunities may alter that but at the base level it will always come out that way.

Not sure how to handle hybrids though. Seems like they would dominate in this hypothetical. Seems like a penalty modifier would be needed for them. you could get 18 in 2 affinities and that would trounce an 18 pure unit even if you were 18 in two affinities as well. Plus you can get say 8 in 2 affinities alot quicker than 16 in 1.

Any thoughts?

It does seem to come in too fast particulary if you are rushing expeditions and questlines. I almost get the impression they are trying to make BE faster paced.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

I think it should be much more expensive to level up Affinities, have a reward for straight Affinities, have a punishment for triple-equal affinities (making 18/18/18 impossible through research alone, even with the 42 achievement), weaken passive affinity perks (nerfing hybrid affinity perks considerably), give each affinity level a modest perk, and add 2 new levels to affinities (with 18, 19, and 20 having strong perks).

Here is some Math

Proposed equation to determine cost of next level regardless of other Affinities:
y = ax^3 + bx^2 + cx + 10, 3>c>b>a>.05, y is base cost, x is affinity level

Examples
Base cost of Affinity level 17 when c=2, b=0.5, a=0.1 is 101 (always round up)
Base cost of Affinity level 17 when c=1.5, b=0.1, a=0.05 is 28
If "rounding up" is front end estimation to the integer + 1, then Affinity 1 will always cost 11 points.

Proposed equation to determine discount to level up dominant Affinity:
z = y - mx(d-s)
(final cost to level up) = (base cost to level up) - (modifier [to be tuned])(current affinity level)*(difference between dominant affinity level and 2nd highest affinity level)

Proposed equation to determine additional cost to level up secondary and tertiary Affinities:
z = y + mx(d-s)
(final cost to level up lower affinities) = (base cost to level up) + (modifier [to be tuned])(current affinity level)*(difference between dominant affinity level and submissive affinity level)

The constants a, b, c, and m can be fine-tuned by the programming team but m should be high enough to make a big difference but not so high as to make Purity 18 cost less than 20 points with Harmony 0 and Supremacy 0. The same constant m should be used to discount the dominant affinity as to inflate the cost of a lower affinity.

 

[Callonia]

Speed of affinities depends on type of the planet you land onto.

Drop onto arid world and you will see your affinity progress slow.

Lush, Primordial, and Atlanean can have somewhat quick affinity progress due to abundance of bug nests.

No comment on fungal / frigid world cuz i haven't played on them yet.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

How about you make the upgrade choices as if(some buffs some nerfs of course while making the units have unique purposes) but unit str modifiers just come in incrementally with each appropriate affinity level. Keeping units in the same pecking order as far as str is concerned from begining to end. I.E that battlesuit is always going to be stronger than a soldier. Upgrade choices and tactical opportunities may alter that but at the base level it will always come out that way.

Not sure how to handle hybrids though. Seems like they would dominate in this hypothetical. Seems like a penalty modifier would be needed for them. you could get 18 in 2 affinities and that would trounce an 18 pure unit even if you were 18 in two affinities as well. Plus you can get say 8 in 2 affinities alot quicker than 16 in 1.

Any thoughts?

It does seem to come in too fast particulary if you are rushing expeditions and questlines. I almost get the impression they are trying to make BE faster paced.

It would probably fit to make it based on unit type so
for example
Soldier units:+2 str highest affinity OR +3 str second highest affinity (whichever is more.)
Battlesuits: +5 str/Purity
Then remove a lot of the str from the upgrades themselves (the upgrades would be more Perks)

The complication would be ranged upgrades that have 2x attack instead of a ranged strength bonus... for those, just give them a x2 and penalty to ranged strength. (the generic bonus would still apply)

 

[MadDjinn]

It would probably fit to make it based on unit type so
for example
Soldier units:+2 str highest affinity OR +3 str second highest affinity (whichever is more.)
Battlesuits: +5 str/Purity
Then remove a lot of the str from the upgrades themselves (the upgrades would be more Perks)

The complication would be ranged upgrades that have 2x attack instead of a ranged strength bonus... for those, just give them a x2 and penalty to ranged strength. (the generic bonus would still apply)

this set up would be my preferred path.

Give all units a base strength, then a +str/top affinity level.

Hybrid units (and base units that are chosen to be 'hybrid') would get a +/both affinity levels -- or require both levels to go up to get a benefit.

then the tier level bonuses would be just that, bonuses that don't include combat strength jumps.

Also, the affinity points on the tech tree would need to be massaged to not be so easy to grab top tier units fast.

This is the most useful way to ensure balancing of the units works out cleanly. No calculated '+40 combat strength' jumps via early game 6/6->8/8 jumps.

 

[Barathor]

I actually love that idea as well. I hope Firaxis is paying attention.

Right now, the power jumps for certain units are just way too much. If there was a system where the strength of all units "gradually" increases as you gain affinity, things would be much, much better. It just makes sense to use something like this with the current system that BE uses, where affinity points are gained from different sources and all units upgrade immediately.

It's not Civ 5 where you rely on tech and have to manually upgrade all existing units with gold. Plus, in Civ 5, there are many more upgraded versions per unit, so the jumps aren't as large (percentage-wise, which is the way to look at it).

This would make mixed armies more useful/necessary again. Right now, when I first hit 6/6 I can't help spamming advanced patrol boats and crushing everything in the ocean; I don't need to build gunboats or sub class units.

As said, it would also help keep unique affinity units relevant so that they're not trumped so hard by upgraded core units -- make those strategic resources useful! (And reduced their quantities... that's another discussion.)

Did I mention that I love this idea yet? Firaxis, please make this happen!

 

[Evgenij]

Affinity progression should match the average game length. By the time someone is completing their victory conditions - end-game units should already be running on the map (with their last upgrades). With current system any progression speed will automatically match, except for contact victory.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

It would probably fit to make it based on unit type so
for example
Soldier units:+2 str highest affinity OR +3 str second highest affinity (whichever is more.)
Battlesuits: +5 str/Purity
Then remove a lot of the str from the upgrades themselves (the upgrades would be more Perks)

The complication would be ranged upgrades that have 2x attack instead of a ranged strength bonus... for those, just give them a x2 and penalty to ranged strength. (the generic bonus would still apply)

I love your idea! Might I add that there should be more upgrades and more units?

I think each of the 6 Affinities should get 5 tiers of units (there is a thread on that somewhere). I also think that there should be more upgrades for all units. The aircraft (Tacjets), submarines, and carriers should get Tier 5 upgrades (such as Evolved Shrike at 18H and Prime Shroud at 16S) and hybrid upgrades but the lower tiers should be weaker and Tier 5 should only be moderately stronger than current Tier 4 (such that the Prime Shroud has 45 Strength and 50 Ranged Strength). The explorers (I've seen a good thread on that) should get 4 Tiers. The Unique Affinity Units should also get 2 upgrades with the first upgrade for different affinities getting the hybrid term (Battle Suits to True, Master, or First Battle Suits) and the 2nd upgrade called the normal upgrades (so Master to Prime and First to Evolved) unless they have even higher main affinity then it gets Ultra appended (Ultra True Battle Suits, Ultra Master Battle Suits, Ultra First Battle Suits). Straight-line affinity upgrades should be stronger than the first hybrid upgrades (so the Master Battle Suits (40) should be weaker than the current Prime Battle Suits) but weaker than the 2nd hybrid upgrades (so the new Prime Battle Suits should be slightly stronger (70) than they are now). Ultra upgrades should be at the strength of current Tier 2 upgrades (66 for Ultra Battle Suits) but the new straight Tier 2 upgrades should be weaker (55 for Pure Battle Suits). If my idea for changing Affinity costs is added then you can get an Ultra True Lev Destroyer (Purity 20), an Ultra Prime ANGEL (Supremacy 20), or an Ultra Evolved Xeno Titan (Harmony 20) easier than a Prime Lev Destroyer (16P/10S), Evolved ANGEL (16S/10H), or True Xeno Titan (16H/10P).

Of course the strength numbers I'm suggesting are relative to the current mod-free SM CivBERT without your (passive) affinity perk or the Affinity Ideology tenet perk in the equation. The numbers would be different, with the base numbers for the upgrades much lower than the base number for the base units but the ratio of strength for the affinity upgrades of Tiers 2 & 3 should be around my provided ratio (I added the quantitative numbers after being confused with my own qualitative descriptions). Purity Affinity perks and upgrades should focus on strength while defending, within borders, and against aliens. Supremacy Affinity perks and upgrades should focus on strength while flanking, outside borders, and against stronger units. Harmony Affinity perks and upgrade should focus on miasma (reduced harm, then immunity, then increased healing, then increased strength and mobility from miasma), defending against stronger units (no bonus against weaker units, such as aliens, or when initiating attack), and movement (hills and rivers treated like plains (like hover units get), forests treated like roads (like Shoshone got)). I also want to see the passive affinity perks for level 1 vanilla CivBE divided across 1 and 2 (so Harmony 1 grants reduced miasma damage to explorers and Harmony 2 grants explorer miasma immunity).

While we are at it, let's talk graphics! The base Affinity Units should get a new model (base Battle Suits losing the cape and flag) and the 2nd upgrades should get a new texture (Prime Battle Suits going silver with sky blue capes & flags with the P/S icon and Evolved Battle Suits going bronze and gold with orange-gold (not yellow-gold) capes & flags with the P/H icon). The Ultra upgrades should look more "affinity-aligned" (Ultra True Battle Suits getting "Bling of War"). I also think that the Ultimate Affinity Units should scale with affinity level. The Ultra Evolved Xeno Titan would look the same as the current Xeno Titan and the base ANGEL and Lev Destroyers would look the same as they do now but the True ANGEL should be about the same size as the base Xeno Titan and the and Prime Lev Destroyer should be almost the size as a base ANGEL.
Texture examples (unchanged models): Tungsten-Carbide Prime ANGEL vs Stainless Steel True ANGEL vs weird (likely rich in Bismuth & Cobalt) purple alloy Evolved ANGEL; Copper-plated True Lev Destroyer vs Gold-plated Evolved Lev Destroyer vs Chrome-plated Prime Lev Destroyer; (Lush biome alien) green Evolved Xeno Titan vs (Fungal biome alien) purple Prime Xeno Titan with cybernetic implants vs (Primordial biome alien) orange True Xeno Titan with bronze armor.

When I earned the 42 achievement, I had 18/18/18 Affinity and I never got free Harmony affinity points or levels (I always chose Purity or Supremacy in quests) and I had Harmony 8 before I won. Simply put, it should be IMPOSSIBLE to max-out All 3 Affinity Levels with research alone but should be feasible to max-out 2 Affinity levels with research+quests but difficult with research alone.

 

[Lucius_]

I agree with units scaling based on affinity level. Likewise I agree that hybrids should scale based on both their affinities (1/1 +2 str, 2/2 +2 strength, 2/1 no increase), but that should only kick in once a unit becomes hybrid at 6/6 etc. Actually, with this route, I could see hybrids having a 3rd tier version starting at 3/3 or such. Honestly I think 6/6 is too low right now, but that might not matter with strength scaling like that. Also I wouldn't unlock uniques from affinity level. No affinity 4, no Xenoswarms for you!

I think some of these ideas in this thread would really help with giving every unit a place and fix the unit leap frogging issues.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

Lucius, how about uniques unlocking with adoption of Affinity Ideology in either the same affinity or adjacent one? Harmony 5 unlocks Harmony Ideology, which unlocks Xenoswarms and whatever the T1 unique P/H and S/H units are. This could then be combined with weaker base stats, added upgrades, and affinity perks (passive and tenet). It would also prevent players from building opposite (and triad complement) affinity units at the same time.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Lucius, how about uniques unlocking with adoption of Affinity Ideology in either the same affinity or adjacent one? Harmony 5 unlocks Harmony Ideology, which unlocks Xenoswarms and whatever the T1 unique P/H and S/H units are. This could then be combined with weaker base stats, added upgrades, and affinity perks (passive and tenet). It would also prevent players from building opposite (and triad complement) affinity units at the same time.

I disagree with that, the unique units could simply scale based on the specific affinity
so
Centurion gets str 15+3/highest affinity level OR 5/second highest
but
Battlesuit gets 20+5/Purity level

So go ahead, unlock a Battlesuit when you are at 4 Purity 8 Harmony, your Xenoswarms will be much stronger (as will your Brawlers)

 

[Azem.Ocram]

I disagree with that, the unique units could simply scale based on the specific affinity
so
Centurion gets str 15+3/highest affinity level OR 5/second highest
but
Battlesuit gets 20+5/Purity level

So go ahead, unlock a Battlesuit when you are at 4 Purity 8 Harmony, your Xenoswarms will be much stronger (as will your Brawlers)

I love your idea the most! I would love to download a mod doing that ASAPAP (As Soon As Possible, After Patch)! My idea tried to "shoehorn" the idea by Lucius with Affinity Ideology, which is awkward and beyond the scope of modding tools. Of course, your idea is in direct contrast to his but disagreement is fine during the planning stage.

A Xeno swarm should be no stronger than the sum of its parts when first unlocked (10 HP Manticore, 30 HP Wolf Beetles, 50 HP Raptor Bugs, 30 HP early-game Brawler) then power up with Harmony (possibly with aliens simultaneously powering up at a slower pace).

 

[Ryika]

"18/18/18 shout not exist!" - why? Is it immoral? Does it spoil our children? Does it eat our cookies? No? Then I still don't understand why people want to "ban" it. It is literally impossible to get during any serious play-through and nothing but a power-fantasy for that one game every now and then. Just let it be what it is, it's existence does not matter.

And good luck to the poor fool that actually starts creating a mod that requires UnitUpgrades for every AffinityLevel. That's hundreds of Perks that would need to be created and assigned.

I like the idea though, smooth progression with just some ability-bumps depending on the Affinity Level sounds a lot better than the current "Upgrade, then roll over that guy that was on equal strength a turn ago"-system.

 

[Halbbruder]

If getting affinities is so easy, then one solution would be to extend the maximum number of affinity levels (probably by around 4), and then increase max affinity level prerequisite for affinity victories and to delay the upgrades from affinities by 1-3 depending on unit type. Since it is also so easy to get to t4 with hybrid builds, these tier 4 units should also be delayed further.

I also like the scaling idea for strength and affinity. You'd still need the perk upgrades but that doesn't determine strength level anymore.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

"18/18/18 shout not exist!" - why? Is it immoral? Does it spoil our children? Does it eat our cookies? No? Then I still don't understand why people want to "ban" it. It is literally impossible to get during any serious play-through and nothing but a power-fantasy for that one game every now and then. Just let it be what it is, it's existence does not matter.

And good luck to the poor fool that actually starts creating a mod that requires UnitUpgrades for every AffinityLevel. That's hundreds of Perks that would need to be created and assigned.

I like the idea though, smooth progression with just some ability-bumps depending on the Affinity Level sounds a lot better than the current "Upgrade, then roll over that guy that was on equal strength a turn ago"-system.

Well, 18/18/18 is immoral to all straight and hybrid affinities. I do not want to ban it, I just want it to be impossible using research alone. If you get enough free affinity levels (such as through quests), you would still be able to max out all 3 affinities. My solution is increased cost AND max Affinity levels (so that Affinity 20 becomes the highest and it should be outrageously expensive if you have 19/18/18).

I think it shouldn't be too difficult to even out the notches with 1 new Unit Upgrade Tier for each upgradable unit, 2 new Upgrade Tiers for explorers, hybrid upgrades for everything, and perks that only apply to certain units with a +x per [affinity] level to affinity-aligned (or adjacent) unique units, using the code for explorer affinity perks. Harmony 3 might be "explorers immune to miasma, +10 strength to Evolved P/H & S/H, Harmony units, and aliens per Harmony level"

 

[Maximus_Light]

Wouldn't the simplest solution be to have the strength of unit upgrade with even affinity level slightly then just have the big tactical perks pop up on key levels?
I my hybrid units seem like this could work so long as they just don't keep going up with every affinity level, like every second one or have a necessity of when combined affinity point be that it require more combined levels than a pure affinity to get the tactical perk.
Also, I feel like the stupidly powerful abilities should either be standardized with the big tactical upgrades or they moved back to choices when they gain experience so that the units work the same but their optimal situation just changes based on the affinity.

(I mean really, back on earth if we had rocket/missile artillery that can used indirect fire with spotting why would they not be able to do that now, even if it takes time to build up the infrastructure for that you'd think it would be standard issue at some point regardless)

 

[Azem.Ocram]

Wouldn't the simplest solution be to have the strength of unit upgrade with even affinity level slightly then just have the big tactical perks pop up on key levels?
I my hybrid units seem like this could work so long as they just don't keep going up with every affinity level, like every second one or have a necessity of when combined affinity point be that it require more combined levels than a pure affinity to get the tactical perk.
Also, I feel like the stupidly powerful abilities should either be standardized with the big tactical upgrades or they moved back to choices when they gain experience so that the units work the same but their optimal situation just changes based on the affinity.

(I mean really, back on earth if we had rocket/missile artillery that can used indirect fire with spotting why would they not be able to do that now, even if it takes time to build up the infrastructure for that you'd think it would be standard issue at some point regardless)

I now know what all the relevant mod ideas are, what mod ideas are possible with the current official tools, and what the scopes of each of the relevant mods are.

This idea should be limited exclusively to passive affinity level perks, ONLY. This project should merely nerf base strength of existing units (including their upgrades) then have each affinity level passively grant combat bonuses to all relevant units. There should be 2 versions of the mod: 1 exactly like I described and 1 that combines this feature with Awesome Affinities, more expensive Affinity Levels, and (if possible) 2 new Ultimate Affinity Levels (19 & 20).

 

[NukeAJS]

Halcyon 7 has a good idea.

As an example, you get marines at level 1 and you get your affinity infantry at level 5 (if I remember right).

For each level between 1 and 5, your marine should get a small strength boost. Upon upgrading them to tier 3, you get a slightly larger strength boost and the additional ability.

Also, once you upgrade to an affinity-specific unit-type, only upgrades in that affinity can provide additional strength boosts. So, once you get purity infantry at level 5, only purity affinity upgrades will give the slight boost to his strength. Getting level 7 supremacy will not increase his strength; however, if you get supremacy up to level 9 (I think), you can switch him over to tier 4 supremacy infantry and he will now get the strength boosts from even more supremacy (and nothing from purity).

Hybrid units will get boosts from increasing both their respective affinity levels, although their strength boosts should be less than "pure" units because it's much easier to get a 6/6 affinity than a pure 12.

As it stands now, a single affinity level can make a huge difference. EX: Armor versus lancer -- lancers are nearly twice as powerful as armor, but you might only be one purity level behind. In this system, lancers will still be more powerful (and more useful/agile due to their additional upgrade) than armor, but there won't be such a huge difference between the two.