AI pumping out missionaries & diplomats

[Soupy Delicious]

Playing on Immortal, and at first I assumed that this was to be expected, but now I realise there's no counterplay to it. I don't know what handicaps they get, but I think it may go beyond reason. There is NO way to compete against their missionaries & diplomats. You can dedicate a city to being a diplomat producer, but the AI will get 3 diplomats out in the time it took to get 1 out for you.

I messed with difficultymod.xml to make it better for myself, but I thought I'd put these thoughts out here to see if others agree or not.

 

[Stalker0]

Playing on Immortal, and at first I assumed that this was to be expected, but now I realise there's no counterplay to it. I don't know what handicaps they get, but I think it may go beyond reason. There is NO way to compete against their missionaries & diplomats. You can dedicate a city to being a diplomat producer, but the AI will get 3 diplomats out in the time it took to get 1 out for you.

I messed with difficultymod.xml to make it better for myself, but I thought I'd put these thoughts out here to see if others agree or not.

So the trick, once you get to Emperor (and especially Immortal play), you have to completely rethink your diplomatic strategy:

1) Early game is about quests as normal. You secure quest combined with the occasional emissary to lock up CS.
2) All GDs should be used for embassies, with very rare exception. These are going to be critical extra votes for you.
3) Into the early stages of envoy, you can still secure key alliances. Some envoys combined with your first spy and some good quest use, and you can lock up some nice alliances.
4) Now once you get into Renaissance things start to go downhill. The AI "wakes up" to its amazing production potential, and starts making GDs and diplo units like its going out style (spoiler: it never goes out of style).

At this point in the game, you have to come to a key realization for your future success.... Diplo units no longer exist to secure alliances. That part of the game is past. Your goal going forward is to use Sphere of Influences to secure alliances, it is the only reasonable way to do it. Meanwhile you begin using diplo units on "Operation Total Friendship". Your goal now is to secure friendships with every CS you can. You will still get decent bonuses from friendship, still get nice bonuses from chanceries and wire services.... but at a tiny fraction of the cost as trying to beat AIs to alliances (and with much less diplomatic penalty to boot).

It doesn't actually take a lot of effort to get to all of the friendships, and then from then on you do the following:

1) Ask for a sphere every time a WC comes up, unless their is a more important proposal you need.
2) Focus on GDs early in the game (often my "free GP" go to them as well in the early game). Make embassies for as long as you can, this will actually be a solid portion of your voting block. Once the embassies are gone, say goodbye to GDs. If you get them, feel free to soften up a CS...but again your not going to gain much ground on the AI here.
3) Keep a few diplo units handy for friendship maintenance (mainly to counter AI GDs that will strip your friendships). Send a unit whenever a GD hits a CS to resecure the friendship.

With this strat, diplomacy is manageable and will still reap you some good bonuses. Anything other than this and you are just fighting up a mountain in the rain with a 10 ton weight on your back, so don't do it!

 

[Soupy Delicious]

Hey Stalker, cheers for taking the time there.

I do want to say that I kinda understood that it would be a situation where you'd be required to adapt, but my piece is that in this case it shouldn't be this way. Why totally remove an element of the game (converting hammers into CS influence) just because the AI (it seems to me) is not tuned? Maybe it's just my playstyle, I dunno. I play Civ for the 'Civilization simulator' aspect, not the 'cheese AI' aspect

 

[Stalker0]

Hey Stalker, cheers for taking the time there.

I do want to say that I kinda understood that it would be a situation where you'd be required to adapt, but my piece is that in this case it shouldn't be this way. Why totally remove an element of the game (converting hammers into CS influence) just because the AI (it seems to me) is not tuned? Maybe it's just my playstyle, I dunno. I play Civ for the 'Civilization simulator' aspect, not the 'cheese AI' aspect

So funny enough, I was actually you like 6 months ago

I had gotten frustrated with diplomacy exactly as you had, it just didn't "seem fair". Ultimately I've come to accept that with every difficulty bump you have to play the game a certain way to stay competitive. Just like I can no longer just toss my units into the fray on Emperor like I could on lower levels...you can't just toss hammers against AI hammers and expect to win. You have to game the system. So that was part of it. The other part, is the fact that the strat I mentioned above actually works pretty well. I normally still get a number of CS allies (you'll be surprised how fast you get spheres when you commit to it)...I still get lots of diplomacy bonuses....and the fact that the AI is nicer to me opens up other diplomatic options I wouldn't have otherwise.

If you want to play "Civ Simulator", then I recommend trying a difficulty level or 2 lower. There is even a setting (someone else can point you to it), that will ensure the AI still makes the most optimal decisions it can (which on emperor below it will randomly select between its first several best options instead of always using the best). That way you are still getting the smartest AI, but not one that gets the immortal bonuses. That may give you the best of what you are looking for.

 

[tothePAIN]

Playing on Immortal, and at first I assumed that this was to be expected, but now I realise there's no counterplay to it. I don't know what handicaps they get, but I think it may go beyond reason. There is NO way to compete against their missionaries & diplomats. You can dedicate a city to being a diplomat producer, but the AI will get 3 diplomats out in the time it took to get 1 out for you.

I messed with difficultymod.xml to make it better for myself, but I thought I'd put these thoughts out here to see if others agree or not.

It's still possible to maintain a few city states as alliances but you have to focus on the city state quests, use spies for influence, and use spheres of influence.

Statecraft + industry can permit buying diplomats at a strong enough rate to keep up with the AI diplo units too. Industry's production can almost keep up. Or Germany with the Hanse and trade routes.

Its possible. Just... difficult.

 

[Soupy Delicious]

hrmm. Fair dinks. I'm currently in the englightenment era & statecraft is helping a lot. But I don't know whether the difference I'm seeing is from this or if it's from the -10% or so I took off AI's ability to produce units. I'll see how I feel at the end of the game

 

[azum4roll]

AIs already don't get a production bonus to non-combat units. The massive production bonus on buildings and combat units makes them run out of stuff to build super fast, though.

 

[a3kov]

You can still maintain few alliances using diplomats even on Immortal. All it takes is to reach a critical margin between your influence and their influence so they decide it's not worth to send their diplomats to that CS anymore. Now, the exact number is always different and you have to pay attention as later they may decide again to bring diplomats there again, at this point you increase the margin again. I find that I can easily maintain 1-3 allies this way.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I agree it's possible, just difficult. I tend to purchase a lot of diplomats even in non-statecraft/industry games. I pair them with spies though and usually focus on just one or two city-states that I care about the most. I agree with @a3kov that if you use multiple diplomats at once to get yourself a nice margin the AI is less likely to try to grab it back than using one at a time.

 

[Soupy Delicious]

AIs already don't get a production bonus to non-combat units. The massive production bonus on buildings and combat units makes them run out of stuff to build super fast, though.

Oh really? That's interesting to know. I guess that means my settings haven't really affected the AI's diplomat scene at all then! I suppose I've earned these few city state alliances then?

I honestly think I've hit a real sweet spot with my difficultymod.xml. It's not too different from regular immortal, and a few of the values have been raised to diety levels, but the AI feels like like they're actually teetering between being confidently powerful, and also struggling in areas as a human would.

And I also want to say that while this thread has been focusing on the city state diplomacy scene, I still firmly hold to it that the missionary issue is impossible. How do they AI pump out so many missionaries?

 

[crdvis16]

Oh really? That's interesting to know. I guess that means my settings haven't really affected the AI's diplomat scene at all then! I suppose I've earned these few city state alliances then?

I honestly think I've hit a real sweet spot with my difficultymod.xml. It's not too different from regular immortal, and a few of the values have been raised to diety levels, but the AI feels like like they're actually teetering between being confidently powerful, and also struggling in areas as a human would.

And I also want to say that while this thread has been focusing on the city state diplomacy scene, I still firmly hold to it that the missionary issue is impossible. How do they AI pump out so many missionaries?

I don't think they get faith bonuses? They get their shrines up faster which helps. Certain civs have massive faith output- Byzantium is a monster, for instance. If Byzantium got an incense monopoly and went Fealty they could probably buy 2-3 missionaries/turn. As a player you could do this too.

 

[a3kov]

I agree with @a3kov that if you use multiple diplomats at once to get yourself a nice margin the AI is less likely to try to grab it back than using one at a time.

You don't need multiple diplomats at once (it's a luxury). You have to start with something. Usually it's a CS that gave you 2-3 easy quests so you start with >100 influence. Then you put a spy there and start sending diplomats there one by one.

 

[Stalker0]

Note I never said you couldn’t make allies with diplomatic units, just that’s it’s not “reasonable”. For the same amount of effort I can often bag 4 or more friends, which has much more yield value.

spheres are just way more efficient, and reliable. A neighbor you made allies with normal is a wretched backstabber waiting to betray you, a sphered neighbor is a trusted friend

 

[a3kov]

For the same amount of effort I can often bag 4 or more friends, which has much more yield value.

Friends come and go, while allies stay. It's really easy to get friends without investing any effort simply from randomly completing their quests. And it's also very easy to lose them because of a GD bomb.

 

[Soupy Delicious]

Quick question yall. Anyone know why I can't vote for myself as UN host? I can still vote for everyone else, and they can vote for themselves!

 

[Tugboatspotter]

I have noticed the AI spam of diplomacy units, but it has been a while since I have played a game to the late stage.

Questions:

Are these units increasing in cost after each unit? If they are is it enough?

If they are not then why not? it is a pretty standard mechanic to limit spam.

 

[Soupy Delicious]

Well paper limits the diplomats, but nothing limits the missionaries. I once found a barb camp with 21 aztec missionaries in them, and his religion was still doing fine

 

[Cokolwiek]

but nothing limits the missionaries

Faith is. And it's no joke calculations when to spread and reform, when to invest in buildings, when to enhance before industrial. You mentioned you play marathon. Faith is one of thousands of things completely imbalanced on this speed. You get three times the turns (so three times the faith) while missionary strength is the same.

 

[Soupy Delicious]

Faith is. And it's no joke calculations when to spread and reform, when to invest in buildings, when to enhance before industrial. You mentioned you play marathon. Faith is one of thousands of things completely imbalanced on this speed. You get three times the turns (so three times the faith) while missionary strength is the same.

Yeah that might be it actually. Never considered it might be the speed I'm playing at. Ah well, doesn't mattah.

 

[Gidoza]

I find that it entirely depends on the game.

For example - in my current game, I'm stuck in a corner of an island with several opponents who took Statecraft while I didn't. I'm struggling to maintain a single alliance.

In a previous game - I took Statecraft as a Warmonger and most of my opponents didn't. Based on Quests alone, I managed to ally every single CS on the map and maintain those alliances for the whole game: the effect was so radical that I wasn't even sure how I was maintaining such a lead or keeping them. The only ones I didn't have were due to two "Open Door" resolutions.

And I'd say on average most of my games I'm able to hold a third to half of the CS pretty much permanently. Probably a ton of factors going on that I can't see, but I don't necessarily calculate anything - I just know by feel whether I need to build Diplo units or not and whether there's any point in sending them to certain places.