AI use of the Forbidden Palace

[Raliuven]

Does anyone know how the AI uses the Forgotten Palace in PTW? I have never spied on all the AI cities to see how they place their FP. Do they even use it? If they do, how effective is the AI? Do they create a second core with their FP?

Thanks in advance for any info!

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

[PTW] I've seen the FP but never noticed how well it was placed, definitely no ring placement for a second core.

I wouldn't give the AI credit for any kind of smart play like that!

 

[Chieftess]

For the AI, it might as well be the Forgotten Palace. The Forbidden Palace is usually placed in an inner-ring city (a city 2-5 tiles away from the capital), and never in a city with 80% corruption, where you might expect to see a FP. The Civ3 AI isn't known for its' city management (I've seen a civ in jungle try to build the Collosus with its' only city! Never got above size 2...).

 

[Sparthage]

For the AI, it might as well be the Forgotten Palace.

I agree completely. I've never seen an AI Forbidden Palace when I typically investigate a city before I conquer it.

Off-Topic: Nice Avatar, Chieftess!

 

[Raliuven]

Oops. Yep, that was a typo or maybe a Freudian Slip?

That is what I was trying to figure out. I think I'll fix the title of the thread so that it actually makes sense . . . .

 

[GamezRule]

I play conquests, but I have never noticed a palace.

 

[Raliuven]

Next question in this vein - still in PTW - do you prioritize rushing the FP or building your first army? Does this change if you are playing militaristic?

It would seem to me that setting up your second core is a huge advantage over the AI and is key (?) to overpowering the AI at higher levels - essentially it could put you on level with the higher AI production capabilities at higher levels. Two cores = 200% production compared to the discount the AI receives.

Creating the first army would allow the Heroic Epic and possibly collect more GL's (which can be used to rush anything). But it seems to me that the power of the HE is too weak to outweigh the FP if the Civ is non-militaristic. Militaristic civs may be able to make up for it with a second quick GL to rush the FP (have your cake and eat it too).

I'm wondering what other pepole think about this?

 

[ahman]

I don't mind saving a leader up to 30-40 turns while getting the second core city in place (building up military and a settler, and maybe even settling a couple of more cities in the first ring to get the possibility to build the FP). It's a good time to make peace with everybody.

You don't know when a leader shows up, even at 1/12 probability. A couple of times I've spent 100 or 200 turns building the FP, then abandoned the game realizing how much powerful I could've been with a second core earlier.

But the probably best method is to to put another city than the capital as the first core, and the capital as one of the cities in the ring. Then you can build the FP quite fast in the first core city, and after that abandon the capital city to do a palace jump to the new core.

Your first core will be somewhat corrupt on the opposite side from the capital, so get the FP up as soon as possible.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I still debate this one with myself when it comes up. Two things that come to mind - I like waiting to see if I can build the Iron Works within my second core and how big is the map and will I have to deal with a runaway AI somewhere. I don't always need or have game time to take the turns to develop the FP.

I do have to say most times I go for the Army.

Another factor that may effect your decision is the fact that you can cut down the build time of an FP by keeping the town/city celebrating WLTKD.

 

[Raliuven]

Another factor that may effect your decision is the fact that you can cut down the build time of an FP by keeping the town/city celebrating WLTKD.

True, but in order to build a really powerful second core you will want to build the FP in a hopelessly corrupt city. The only feasible way is to rush it with a GL. Which is not to say you can't build one on the fringe of your corrupt empire.

The other option brought up by ahman is to build the first core around a city that will have the FP and then move the palace when you find the next location (though I don't practice palace jumping by disbanding). But that could result in wasting the power of the FP until later in the game.

My hypothesis is that setting up a strong second core early on will help decide the game early , particularly with a lucky GL in the early game. Waiting to find out were the coal is just seem like too long for me. Ironworks are nice, but I don't think they have ever determined a game for me (though I have not beat PTW deity yet). I once had an Ironworks that could produce an Army every 3 turns. Of course the game was already well in hand before that development, it was just a nice touch.

Maybe my true issue is that I just don't generate enough GLs. I do my best to leader-fish, but I am lucky to receive a GL in the AA and generally only have one for the MA, two if I am really lucky. But I usually do not play a militaristic Civ.

 

[Lanzelot]

Next question in this vein - still in PTW - do you prioritize rushing the FP or building your first army? Does this change if you are playing militaristic?

In PTW: I never build an Army except when playing 20K. (Heroic Epic is a nice culture boost, and also the higher chance of MGLs means I can probably rush 2-3 wonders.) Armies in PTW are just pathetic. They are weak and they take ages to heal. Using three separate units is much more effective.

So if I'm lucky to get an early MGL (which I usually don't...) I build the FP.

In C3C: an Army of course...! Armies are really powerful and usually game-deciding. The FP on the other hand doesn't do much in C3C (it's "nice to have", but nowhere near as powerful as in PTW).

 

[Caseyboy97]

For me, I use it when i need another core another continent. To help prevent corruption in an over seas empire.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

Armies in PTW are just pathetic. They are weak and they take ages to heal. Using three separate units is much more effective.

[PTW]I don't see how 3 units can be more effective when you lose the first two and bump the defending unit to veteran or elite. Of course you didn't mention what age your talking from. I'll build that first army as soon as I can but hold off building any others until I have Cavalry.

Armies also make a huge difference in how much bombardment is necessary.

I get the feeling you folks are spoiled with your quick healing armies. I don't see how it makes a better game, hurry-hurry-ding-ding.

 

[Raliuven]

[PTW]I don't see how 3 units can be more effective when you lose the first two and bump the defending unit to veteran or elite. Of course you didn't mention what age your talking from. I'll build that first army as soon as I can but hold off building any others until I have Cavalry.

Armies also make a huge difference in how much bombardment is necessary.

I get the feeling you folks are spoiled with your quick healing armies. I don't see how it makes a better game, hurry-hurry-ding-ding.

Well, that was one of my problems. Lukily (?) I was playing Rome and it was the dawn of the legion. So my thought was that I could make a legion army and it might be relatively effective for some time. As a Military Civ, a heroic epic might create a few more GL that I could use to make a second core. In this case it worked, but I don't know that I would gamble on it in the future. Well placing a second core seems crucial - I goofed that a bit. Should have rushed a little further into the corrupted lands.

I do find it interesting that Lanzelot does not use armies. My usual use for an army is as a shield - put them on the stack and nothing will touch it, resulting in more units reaching the attack point at full health. Even during the time of cavalry, nothing would attack my legion army - the AI didn't make it tanks.

But it is big problem. What do you load into an AA army that will be worthwhile (and more worthwhile than a strong second core)?

Lanzelot's point is welltaken - since very other unit is superhealing in a city with a barracks, why does it take so darn long for an army to heal in the same city? Apparantely that flag hides the wounded from the medics.

 

[Spoonwood]

The militaristic trait only makes it easier to get promotions. It does not directly increase the probability of spawning an MGL.

 

[Raliuven]

The militaristic trait only makes it easier to get promotions. It does not directly increase the probability of spawning an MGL.

Thanks - I didn't realize this. I guess it does increase the probability - as in you will have more elites around to try with. I always thought the trait directly made the probability more likely. Good to know. Thanks! I guess I was even luckier than I first thought . . .

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

My usual use for an army is as a shield - put them on the stack and nothing will touch it,

My favorite use for armies is to surround a Stack of Death and then just sit back and plug away at it comfortably, no hurry.

 

[Raliuven]

Well, I did some looking around in my last game on Monarchy and it seems to confirm what everyone was saying (not that I doubted it for a minute). All of the FP I found were in or near to the first ring of corruption from the capital, all of the AI's had one (early IA).

 

[Lanzelot]

I do find it interesting that Lanzelot does not use armies. My usual use for an army is as a shield - put them on the stack and nothing will touch it, resulting in more units reaching the attack point at full health.

Well, yes, that's a valid reason. However, this should be necessary only on Deity (and Sid, but PTW doesn't have that level...). On every other level you can get by without that "shield", which means the leader is better invested in something else. (Second core or powerful wonder.)

 

[Raliuven]

Well, yes, that's a valid reason. However, this should be necessary only on Deity (and Sid, but PTW doesn't have that level...). On every other level you can get by without that "shield", which means the leader is better invested in something else. (Second core or powerful wonder.)

That is what I find interesting. I must be army dependant! It is like a security blanket. You don't even use armies on PTW deity (what is that, demi-god level in C3C)? Hmmm. I will need to try this and see what happens. If I go down in flames in GOTM110, I'm blaming you!