AIs and the Art of War

[Thunderbrd]

By "ideal", I mean for gameplay and balance, rather than historical accuracy. The promotions no doubt help, but as a suicide unit a ram's life is a short one, and they're not going to be earning any xp to gain more than they manage to start with.

It's not me I'm concerned for. I can just guess how many rams I'll need, build a big stack of them and march them all over together to use on the same turn. The AI doesn't seem to be wrapping its head around that though. Does it understand that rams are not normal siege weapons, and that it needs way more of them than it would catapults?

It could probably use some tweaking - but then again in my test game they came at me with a lot of rams first so at least they do realize it makes a difference. It's a terrible counter to what you're saying here and I don't mean it to be a final word on the subject by any means but... it cannot certainly be the WORST way the AI makes less than optimal decisions. There's a LOT of work to do on the warfare AI strategy and I figure that even if Koshling doesn't pick up the ball there I'd rather work on that whole structure as a major project that encompasses many changes taking place between now and then, including this one. To me... those developments are another step on the assembly line of development. It won't be ignored forever. In the meantime, an easy fix to get them to build more would be to give them (and I'm reluctant to say it) a little AI weight on the unit xml. This would inspire the AI to build more of them. Obviously they at least have the attack sequence down correctly since they do attack with them first.

The promos on such self-sacrificing units would make it important to enhance your military city's xp output for such unit types. I realize many won't survive the assault but it sure makes the way you build them count. If they prove tooooo weak I can easily adjust their base numbers. A little improvement in their breakdown abilities does go a long ways. I'd have given them withdrawal ability in addition to combat limit but I had a hard time justifying them fleeing from the gates once there unless the gates were already destroyed.

Just keep in mind that the goal of the new structure is to make warfare for those eras FEEL more realistic.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

maybe a Great General could build a Building "Quality" +10 XP -% Unit Production +? Culture -? gold for Maintenance; and "Quantity" -XP? +% Unit Production, +anger, and less maintenance then Quality

Also if it is possible to Add to the +XP bonus on Quality, one could gradually make it reach it, +1 XP with Warfare, etc.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

maybe a Great General could build a Building "Quality" +10 XP -% Unit Production +? Culture -? gold for Maintenance; and "Quantity" -XP? +% Unit Production, +anger, and less maintenance then Quality

Also if it is possible to Add to the +XP bonus on Quality, one could gradually make it reach it, +1 XP with Warfare, etc.

Give a bit more detail on what you want. I can see this as a useful addition. What tech does it need? Does it need any buildings to be in the city? Do civics or religions have a affect? basically the sort of information you see Hydro provide for new buildings except the cost as only Great Generals and perhaps some Heroes can build them.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

I'm not sure how to implement this, but i think it would be unlocked at Warfare in the Prehistoric Age, and with the Advancement of Military Techs would become better and better as Quality starts to become more and more of a Possibility,

At Unlock "Quality +1 XP, +1 Culture (though not sure if maintenance can be scaled up by tech)"
At Unlock "Quality -1 XP +5(or 10)% Unit Production +1 Anger (from taking all the young men, although that can be added by an Ancient Tech as around the Persian versus Greek wars which are now movies a standing army got implemented)
and then with every Improvement in Military Logistics Tech it get's better, i'll have to see the Tech Tree to make a rough Step system

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not sure how to implement this, but i think it would be unlocked at Warfare in the Prehistoric Age, and with the Advancement of Military Techs would become better and better as Quality starts to become more and more of a Possibility,

At Unlock "Quality +1 XP, +1 Culture (though not sure if maintenance can be scaled up by tech)"
At Unlock "Quality -1 XP +5(or 10)% Unit Production +1 Anger (from taking all the young men, although that can be added by an Ancient Tech as around the Persian versus Greek wars which are now movies a standing army got implemented)
and then with every Improvement in Military Logistics Tech it get's better, i'll have to see the Tech Tree to make a rough Step system

Good idea but I think the Anger is overthinking it and would make it an even worse choice than I'd feel it to be already. I let NOTHING minimize my xp but that's just me I'd almost be tempted to suggest a +20% Unit Production modifier per -1 XP to make it feel like a real benefit of a building option. The Quality one should nix on the culture and just go completely inverse to the Quantity one but not as severe so we have more room before we get to -100% or more so maybe -10% Unit Production modifier per +1 XP.

And yes, I believe you can modify those by making them autobuild other buildings which would unlock as techs increase. You can also make it possible for only one OR the other to be built in a given city (and I think it should be setup that way.)

 

[Raven Destroyer]

You can also make it possible for only one OR the other to be built in a given city (and I think it should be setup that way.)

You Can't combine Quality and Quantity though Mass Production might give a Little XP Bonus (lessening the malus) on Quantity as things can be produced as a Singular quality in large supplies, 3D Printing might also lessen the Malus on the XP of Quantity though Quality should also get a Increase of XP (or Build speed) from those techs, with the logic of Specialized Factories making designed gear of elite forces easier

Though i guess you could make some cities a Elite Strike forces Base, and other cities as a Mass Infantry Recruitment center

Maybe the Quality/Quantity thing might also be put on the Units themselves as part of the Combat Overhaul mod

 

[Yudishtira]

I've got an AI Settler wandering round in my game, escorted only by an Ambusher. If I moved my Rogue away, my other units could capture the Settler without fighting the now-invisible Ambusher, couldn't they? Does the AI not realize this?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Probably not. Probably feels it has a perfectly acceptable escort. Sigh. Something to keep in mind when poking around in that code segment at some point.

 

[LumenAngel]

In my current game, barbarian build a lot of forts
But if I capture them and leave them empty, they dont try to capture them again...
And all barbarians cities are connected with roads...

 

[Arkenor]

I've just realised how many healers the enemy is building. I'm approaching an enemy capital, and its main defence seems to be a stack of 16 healers, and I've been dealing with stacks of healers all through this game.

A single healer is a very good thing to have in your army, but you do need to have some troops with a chance of surviving the round for them to get to do any healing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've just realised how many healers the enemy is building. I'm approaching an enemy capital, and its main defence seems to be a stack of 16 healers, and I've been dealing with stacks of healers all through this game.

A single healer is a very good thing to have in your army, but you do need to have some troops with a chance of surviving the round for them to get to do any healing.

You do realize that Healers are Not just for healing units don't you? Developed AI cities will have many healers to keep Disease under control so they can use building that add wealth or resources but have disease and penalties.

JosEPh

 

[Arkenor]

You do realize that Healers are Not just for healing units don't you? Developed AI cities will have many healers to keep Disease under control so they can use building that add wealth or resources but have disease and penalties.

JosEPh

Yes, I do realise that.

If the city needs 16 healers to keep its head above the diseased water, then it is doing something very very wrong. I don't need any.

And it would not bother me if they had sufficient proper troops. They don't. Just squillions of healers.

 

[Arkenor]

Picture attached. This is the forces defending Sumeria's capital. And he declared war on me, the oaf.

Regardless of his need for disease control, he clearly considers healers to be useful defenders.

 

[Thunderbrd]

"Squillions"... that's an awesome new word! The other day I heard someone refer to a number as 12 Zillionty and thought that was pretty cool too.

Anyhow, yes, it's a known problem that healers are considered valid military units. Koshling and I have discussed various ways to resolve but neither of us have taken those steps and they aren't simple ones to take so it's a fair project in itself. In short, we need more AI types defined and when it comes to human units, this can mean a lot of complexity all over the place. Healers are a square peg being shoved into a star hole but it's still the closest fit until we have more definitions in the code.

 

[Logik]

Hi just wanted to say great job with this newest version of C2C i can see all the dedication and hard work you guys put in to this. That said i just want to give you a heads up after about 200 turns of playthrough in v34. I see the ai like someone posted above build quite a few healers and also a bunch of wanderers and scouts. I mean so many infact that it makes me wonder if this is killing there economy any? Just an observation that's all.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes, I do realise that.

If the city needs 16 healers to keep its head above the diseased water, then it is doing something very very wrong. I don't need any.

And it would not bother me if they had sufficient proper troops. They don't. Just squillions of healers.

I don't recall you giving city size or era these 16 healers are in. Nor game setup options (diff level , Game speed etc.).

Blanket statements with no detail lead to blanket answers.

And if you can play C2C without a single healer in your cities by late Classical era, I want a copy of your game. Or you are exaggerating. Again .

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And if you can play C2C without a single healer in your cities by late Classical era, I want a copy of your game. Or you are exaggerating. Again .

Agree, Even on Noble difficulty you need at least one healer by late classical and two by early modern.

 

[LumenAngel]

I
And if you can play C2C without a single healer in your cities by late Classical era, I want a copy of your game. Or you are exaggerating. Again .

You can.
Shamanisme/druidism combo and half of your cities will have no unhealthy from building. That include Disease building. With lemons and some tech, some of them will even give health.
Other half will be your "small" cities.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So the bug is not that you can't change before Divine Cult but that the ai can.

That is probably a long term bug and is probably in AND also since I don't think any other mod requires a civic to convert to state religion.

 

[Faustmouse]

And if you can play C2C without a single healer in your cities by late Classical era, I want a copy of your game. Or you are exaggerating. Again .

I could give you any of my savegames. I never use healers in my city until late Industrial if at all. And by then, some diseases are already obsolete. I mean, what's the point of fighting diseases? You have enough to counter all these from them and the only makes your cities grow faster which in turn reduce the Education. Maybe my games would be way better with the use of healers, but I still beat the AI on deity easily by the end of the Medieval Era.

As you urge people to try faster gamespeeds: Try to not fight disease once and let me know how it works for you