ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[Validator]

The strength of your position is starting to show up in this round. By the end of next round it should be a runaway.

I agree that Astronomy doesn't look as valuable as a Liberalism tech at the moment. Nationalism definitely has a nice upside. In addition to Taj Mahal it gives you the ability to build Hermitage in KS. It gives you the pre-req for Constitution (which gives you Representation to add to the Caste system/Pacifism civic combo) and would let you consider a bee-line to Democracy (although that will leave you vulnerable in military techs unless you can make some trades).

One option that you didn't mention is to trade PP to Huayna for Banking now and then take RP as your free tech. That would mean you would only be two techs away from being able to field rifles. I think Nationalism has more to offer at the moment but if you're really concerned about an attack from Mehmed RP may be best choice.

Another way to deal with the copper is to generate a Great Artist and culture bomb Ning-hsia. That should give you control of the copper tile and will probably flip Izmir if it continues to be totally lacking in culture. (Another one of the AI's moves).

 

[kniteowl]

After Liberalism==>Nationalism (Free Tech) I'd go for Gunpowder next for the Pinch Promotion and Musketmen to counter the Ottoman UU. Before Muskets, Knight are the best Chance at Counter the Ottoman UU But once you get Gunpowder, use your muskets to counter his muskets because the Ottoman UU has an Advantage over all Middle Age units except for Siege and Gunpowder types.

For the Victory Condition, Space is a Definite, but so is Diplomatic Victory on the condition that your opposition isn't Isabella or Medmed, If you do get the Mass Media Tech, Trade it to Inca's and Hope they Build the UN, and you'll Probably have an Earlier then expected Victory

 

[aelf]

After Liberalism==>Nationalism (Free Tech) I'd go for Gunpowder next for the Pinch Promotion and Musketmen to counter the Ottoman UU. Before Muskets, Knight are the best Chance at Counter the Ottoman UU But once you get Gunpowder, use your muskets to counter his muskets because the Ottoman UU has an Advantage over all Middle Age units except for Siege and Gunpowder types.

If you're going to war against Mehmed soon, I agree with this. But let me elaborate a little on kniteowl's point. Essentially, you should use either musketmen or Pinch-promoted knights as stack protectors, to make sure you're safe from Jannisary attacks along the way. Once you get to his cities, feel free to hit them with your siege weapons as usual, since Janissaries don't get any bonus against siege. Once they have suffered enough collateral damage, you should be able to take them out fairly easily with your CR units.

 

[aelf]

Just got relatively up to the date with the game. Diplomacy-wise, I think you will pretty much have an easy time. You're not aiming for a diplomatic victory, are you? That is going to be hard at best. But you should be able to have things under control and pursue a space victory peacefully.

I'm not too worried that Mehmed will backstab you. AI backstabbing just doesn't happen in my games unless they are Alex or Monty or are bribed by someone who hates me. Your power rating isn't all that low. Unless you really have nothing better to build, I suggest you don't build too much military. The risks that you face are not high enough to be worth the effort. Just have enough forces to secure your border in case Mehmed does attack or repel an oversea invasion by Huayna (which I don't think is very likely). A DP with Isabella later should take care of security once and for all where Mehmed is concerned.

 

[carl corey]

There's something I don't get in this last round: you traded Philosophy to Huayna who was also on his way to Liberalism. Then, instead of researching Education yourself, you waited for it to be lightbulbed while researching Engineering (what for?) and Printing Press - the latter being the next on the lightbulb path anyway. Why didn't you beeline to Liberalism? You should have been there ages ago! By the way, I sometimes do this when coming from behind in the Liberalism race: run scientists wherever I can, entirely forget production and change the remaining hammers directly into beakers/gold. In one game I got Liberalism, Economics and Physics with strategies like this and since you're spiritual a switch to Caste System & Pacifism (to take advantage of the multiple scientists) is easy to make.

One more question: you say you want to build knights and to change civics to OR. How would that help? If you have no desire to go to war and so switch to Theocracy then just stay in Pacifism.

About the Liberalism free tech: if you trade for Banking that will help you see if Economics is already researched or not. If not, I suggest you take it and get the Merchant. If it's already done, then go for Nationalism & Taj. It might not be that huge a boost for you, but you don't want Huayna to build it in your place.

 

[patagonia]

I agree with aelf about not wasting time on military for now.

Trade with Isabella for DR and get working on the Spiral Minaret in your highest production city; take Nationalism as the free Liberalism tech and build the Taj. While that's going on, tech to rifles and have a round of drafting (in theocracy) to shore up your defences (remember, drafting twice in a smaller city is better than once in a small city and once in a large one).

You can easily win cultural using cottages + slider alone, provided you tech to military tradition for a DP with Spain. If you go for space instead, claiming the copper tile will be a help (it helps with SS production, not just with the SoL).

 

[cabert]

you say that the lack of wonder takes cultural out.
Let me say that's not a point at all.
I didn't open the save, so I don't know for sure, but any city with 12 or more cottages and 4 religions is a very good candidate for legendary at this point.

edit : now I opened the save and saw that your best cottage city had as few cottages as would a hybrid economy city . (5 is the most I could find)
+ your city don't overlap, making it hard to focus on maturing cottages for the 3 big ones (and room for helper cities is hard to find).
seems to me it's indeed too late for a cultural run.

 

[Structure]

This was good to see and will be fun to play again (for the third time) myself. I've never used caste system effectively.

In the two rounds I played on my own Huayna beat me to liberalism both times by a long shot despite my making a beeline for it. Mehmed backstabbed one time and Huayna the other (though a little after this round).

Rounds like this, and probably the next, may be a bit "boring" but they are hugely helpful. When I play Monarch I can't catch a tech leader. Even on Prince I struggle to catch up in a situation like this, though thanks in part to your threads I now usually win.

 

[popejubal]

When playing a shadow game, I noticed something extremely interesting.

I got tired of Ragnar holding all of that land that he wasn't putting to good use, so I decided that I'd make sure it would go to someone who would appreciate it more.

About 1/2 way through the conquest, he went and made himself a vassal to the tech leader and my good buddy Kublai Kahn. (obviously a very different game.)

I was annoyed by that since I wanted to continue to the juicy center of Ragnar's continent now that I had broken through the candy shell. Later, though, I noticed something delightful.

Mehmed was willing to let me bribe him into going to war with Ragnar even though he was not willing to go to war with The Jowls that Walk. I gave him Flight to attack Ragnar and he ended up at war Kublai Kahn. I waited a few turns and then declared war on Mehmed myself.

I now have a bonus to diplomacy with Kublai Kahn because of the shared military struggle and I have no penalty to diplomacy for starting the war since I asked Mehmed to attack Ragnar, not the Kahn. I also have a few more cities that will be out of anarchy soon since I've been bombing the heck out of Mehmed and attacking him with Modern Armor. Soon, I'll have the UN all to myself as well as Hollywood. I'll also have a few more cities that will all contribute nicely to my empire.

I don't know if this should count as an exploit since it was obvious that Mehmed was not counting Ragnar's master in the equation of war declaration, but whether it's an exploit or a valid tactic, it certainly was a delightful surprise.

 

[rustydusty10]

You have the Hindu Holy City, I think you should be spreading that religion just as much as Buddhism since the Shrine income will add to your economy's strength!

 

[cabert]

You have the Hindu Holy City, I think you should be spreading that religion just as much as Buddhism since the Shrine income will add to your economy's strength!

he doesn't have a shrine for it

 

[Sisiutil]

he doesn't have a shrine for it

Good point, and I'm not going to generate a Great Prophet anytime soon. Though if I build the Spiral Minaret and a bunch of temples in the same city then run priests, I could have one in short order. I'm planning on having Karakorum change from GP generation to infrastructure for a few turns anyway, so that might not be a bad plan.

Another consideration regarding warring against Mehmed: resources. No, he doesn't have much that I don't have right now, but I'm thinking of the late game strategic resources: uranium, coal, oil, and aluminum.

My off-line Hannibal game on the weekend was revealing in this regard. I warred early against Bismarck and found myself sharing the continent with Genghis and Brennus, all of us happy Hindus. I shared borders with both and we were all about equal in power; if I attacked one, I risked bringing the other into it. So the game followed a very similar pattern to this one, with a long, extended period of shared-religion peace following an early war for territory.

(By the way, I enjoyed more initial success with Hannibal by pretty much neglecting his UU. I just don't find Horse Archers or their variants to be all that useful, and Horseback Riding is too expensive a distraction to pursue early in the game. His UB, however, rocks. Anyway.)

I then found in the late game that I lacked both oil and aluminum! Both were tantalizingly close to my borders, as if the game was haughtily reminding me that if I'd been bolder, I would have had both key resources.

Obviously, the more land you have, the greater chance there is that you'll have all the resources you need. Taking Mehmed's territory (which is very good land anyway) would assure us a much better probability of having those crucial resources. Doing so is a tall order at the moment, since he's ahead of me in power and just obtained his UU, which counters most units I can throw at him. And I'd have to spread another religion to him (Judaism seems like the best bet) and hope he converts so that Isabella stays friendly.

Or should I just settle back and wait? By the time I'd have a force capable of easily knocking down Mehmed (not to mention his UU being obsolete), we may know the location of some of the strategic resources--oil in particular, since Scientific Method isn't too far off. In addition, neither resource is essential. As I recall, aelf showed in the last of the EMCs that he could hold his own in the late game without oil. And the Hannibal game showed me that if I can manage a come-from-behind space ship win without a late golden age, the Space Elevator, or the Three Gorges Dam, I should be able to manage it without aluminum (though I'd prefer to compensate for it by having one or more of those other items).

 

[patagonia]

Obviously, the more land you have, the greater chance there is that you'll have all the resources you need. Taking Mehmed's territory (which is very good land anyway) would assure us a much better probability of having those crucial resources. Doing so is a tall order at the moment, since he's ahead of me in power and just obtained his UU, which counters most units I can throw at him. And I'd have to spread another religion to him (Judaism seems like the best bet) and hope he converts so that Isabella stays friendly.

Or should I just settle back and wait? By the time I'd have a force capable of easily knocking down Mehmed (not to mention his UU being obsolete), we may know the location of some of the strategic resources--oil in particular, since Scientific Method isn't too far off. In addition, neither resource is essential. As I recall, aelf showed in the last of the EMCs that he could hold his own in the late game without oil. And the Hannibal game showed me that if I can manage a come-from-behind space ship win without a late golden age, the Space Elevator, or the Three Gorges Dam, I should be able to manage it without aluminum (though I'd prefer to compensate for it by having one or more of those other items).

It'd be more "historically accurate" if you waited until you discovered you were lacking a crucial resource before going to war for it.

Cultural imperialism powered by Free Speech (and the Eiffel Tower) can help to grab those tantalisingly close resources if need be as well.

Alternatively, snagging 2 of the modern luxury wonders can normally get you any strategic resource you need from the AI in trade. Isabella's even happy enough to stand a good chance of giving you a spare if you ask her nicely when the time comes.

 

[Sisiutil]

It'd be more "historically accurate" if you waited until you discovered you were lacking a crucial resource before going to war for it.

Cultural imperialism powered by Free Speech (and the Eiffel Tower) can help to grab those tantalisingly close resources if need be as well.

Alternatively, snagging 2 of the modern luxury wonders can normally get you any strategic resource you need from the AI in trade. Isabella's even happy enough to stand a good chance of giving you a spare if you ask her nicely when the time comes.

Good points. I'm getting a little spoiled by playing the Canada mod, where there's a "Tar Sands Project" you can build that gives you 5 oil resources. Nice if you find you don't have any in your territory!

 

[Validator]

And I'd have to spread another religion to him (Judaism seems like the best bet) and hope he converts so that Isabella stays friendly.

Or should I just settle back and wait?

If you're going to spread a religion to Mehmed why not make it Hinduism? If you do build the shrine at some point you would get a secondary benefit.

To go to war at this point over a possible lack of late game resources seems a bit premature. Even if you don't end up having them in your territory you may be able to trade for them (the AI tends to charge a fortune for them, but you'll be able to afford it). And wouldn't it be helpful to know where they are before fighting the war? You could attack Mehmed, capture all his land and still end up without a particular resource. The nice thing is that the late game resources are revealed before you can actually use them, so you have time to "acquire" a source.

And I don't know that having to live without a late game resource would be that much of a problem in this game. Lack of aluminum will slow the building of some SS parts, but the SS Engine (likely the critical last part) doesn't get speeded up by any resource, so it may not have much of an affect on when you launch. In any case you should have enough of a lead that it won't matter. Oil and uranium don't have any direct impact on the space race (although lack of oil would leave you will some unfortunate military deficiencies if you do get forced into a late war). Lack of coal would probably have the biggest impact on a space race, but even some of those issues could be dealt with by building other power plants or TGD.

I would wait to see how things turn out before starting a war that might not be necessary.


As to the tech path, after reading some of the comments and giving it a little more thought I think Nationalism as the free tech followed up by Gunpowder and MT would probably be the best option to deal with your current situation. MT would give you the option of the DP with Isabella, and would give the ability to build Cavalry. Cavalry are the best unit you can field in the near term, and are actually quite a dominant unit when they are available this early. They'll help your power rating considerably, and if you do find yourself warring with Mehmed they can handle his UU.

After MT I'd probably be tempted to go after Constitution and Democracy. In addition to getting a headstart on SoL, Emancipation would be helpful since (as Cabert pointed out) you're a little behind the curve in getting the cottages up and running.

After that it will probably depend on what techs you've managed to trade for.

 

[Sisiutil]

Good advice from Validator as usual. I think my anxiousness to fight is just my warmongering tendencies coming to the fore again. No one is as fanatical as a recent convert.

I find it interesting that after aelf's criticism of war's elevated importance since the Warlords patch, I've now had two games in a row (this one and my off-line Hannibal game) that, aside from an early war, have been relatively peaceful. The key in both circumstances has been a shared religion on my own landmass--not one I founded, either, but one that I spread to all my cities once I had the chance.

In fact, the shared religion makes warring more difficult. You can't declare war on one neighbour without a diplomatic penalty from the other and the risk of their getting drawn into the conflict against you. So unless you build military like there's no tomorrow (as I did in the Tokugawa game), you're better off being a peaceful builder. It feels weird. It's been too long!

 

[aelf]

I find it interesting that after aelf's criticism of war's elevated importance since the Warlords patch, I've now had two games in a row (this one and my off-line Hannibal game) that, aside from an early war, have been relatively peaceful. The key in both circumstances has been a shared religion on my own landmass--not one I founded, either, but one that I spread to all my cities once I had the chance.

Diplomacy is the key here, whether you intended it or not. I argued that the patch would lead to a trend of warmongering becoming more important, since it would be increasingly necessary to neutralise the AI's even greater advantages at levels beyond Noble. Of course, this may vary depending on how each game goes.

 

[cabert]

Diplomacy is the key here, whether you intended it or not. I argued that the patch would lead to a trend of warmongering becoming more important, since it would be increasingly necessary to neutralise the AI's even greater advantages at levels beyond Noble. Of course, this may vary depending on how each game goes.

I've just finished an emperor cultural win (playing spain), where I didn't conquer anything. And mind you I had Alexander as a meighbour!
And I didn't even send him to war across the globe.
I did a good deal of moves, like being unable to get more than 6 cities (I flipped 2 more later, one with forbidden palace, one with versailles , but not enough to build cathedrals in my capital) or being unable to get my third city above size 14, or like building only 4 workers for the whole game, or like missing the pyramids because I didn't chop...

I had to defend against a late game attack by Saladin, but was lucky (or good?) to have signed a defensive pact with alex just a few turns before that . I promise I didn't reload . I still had to kill a few cavalries with catapults and musketmen (and frigates with caravels , after thorough testing, I can tell you need 4 to 5 caravels to sink one frigate).
And I also had entered a fake war with Mansa Musa to please Alex some times before (my army was 1 galley and 2 catapults, MM defended with LB, I didn't attack of course).

All this to say that up to emperor at least, playing warlords 2.08, you can be totally peaceful and win.

 

[aelf]

All this to say that up to emperor at least, playing warlords 2.08, you can be totally peaceful and win.

This doesn't change anything. You can, but the possibilty is lower now. I think more people make a point to win peacefully after the patch, which is why there is more prominent reporting of it now as opposed to pre-patch.

 

[cabert]

This doesn't change anything. You can, but the possibilty is lower now. I think more people make a point to win peacefully after the patch, which is why there is more prominent reporting of it now as opposed to pre-patch.

I'm responsible for 2 of those reports (last time it was monarch level), and it's not to prove you wrong, but because I like the cultural wins .
I'm not convinced that war is that easy after the patch :
the AI now drafts and whips troops, which it seemed never to do before.