ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

Sisiutil,

Are you using Solver's patch? You didn't make any mention of it. And are you using the the revised UnitInfos.xml file that fixes the Military Academy bug? (It's available on the Solver patch thread on Apolyton.)
Yes on both counts, good catch. I will edit the starting post to reflect that.
You are playing with Isabella rather than a new leader. Consider me uninterested.
That's your prerogative. I suppose proposed ALC games 20, 21, 23, 27, 30, 33, 35, 36, 40, 41, 42, 44, 45, 46, 47, 50, 51, and 52 also won't interest you. Whatever. Come back for the next one, which will be played with Gilgamesh.

Remember that the purpose of the ALCs is to try to play and post a game with all of the leaders in Civ IV, not just the new ones. I haven't played a game as Isabella yet and frankly I've been looking forward to it. I'm also trying to go through the civs in alphabetical order, more or less, though it does require cycling back through them to cover off leaders I missed the first time through.
Settle in place and Meditation first gives Buddhism for sure (on Epic I think that should take 12 turns). It's the safest bet to found a religion. Any other choice involves risk.

hmmmm....I just checked the safe and Meditation takes 13 turns, which means Meditation first is actually very risky. Only 12 turns is a 100% sure thing (working an oasis-3c-tile or financial trait and 2c-tile).
That was my take on it too. I decided to go a slightly different route. The first round post will be up shortly!
 
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2875 BC

First off, I sent the Warrior 1NE as suggested to check on the existence of any other seafood:



Nope, nada. Well, that just added more weight to the decision to settle in place.



The first build, I thought, was rather obvious: a Work Boat. In fact, that was going to be my second build as well. But what about research? As Fierabras mentioned above, going after Meditation/Buddhism was going to be risky; 13 turns even while working the lake tile. Which is not a big deal to my mind. I'll want Meditation later on, but I could trade for it or research it when it's cheaper.

Some of you were urging me to forgo an early religion. But come on, this is Isabella! It's like she was whispering in my ear, her voice mysterious and husky, her lips tickling my earlobe, her warm breath caressing my temple... "Sisiutil... found a religion for me... I promise you won't regret it..."



Whatever you say, babe.

So, yeah, I delayed the build of the Work Boat a little in the quest for Polytheism, Hinduism, and an early religion. But I was thinking long-term as well. We're anticipating generating several Great Prophets, I should think, so shrine income--from several shrines, potentially--could be a real boost to Spain's economy.

As much as I said I'd like Isabella to be Christian, we'll see how the game plays out. That wish on my part was solely for flavour; let's focus, as we should, on winning the game.

Meanwhile, my Warrior had some things to do. Exploration had to be postponed a few turns. Founding Madrid had revealed a tribal village south of the city that wouldn't be popped until the third border expansion. I couldn't leave it that long and take the chance that the AI would beat me to it, especially since I wasn't going to building another exploratory unit for some time. And as it turned out, sending the Warrior down there was very worthwhile:



I managed to pop two other huts this round, also for gold, so I now have a good little next egg to support early research and take care of any nasty random events. Yes, and I have wine nearby too, so Monarchy--already on the early tech priority list--has become even more attractive.

In 3700 BC, 1 turn before I would have finished the tech myself, I got news about Buddhism:



And I was to find out who the culprit was very soon indeed. So Fierabras, you were right, pursuing Buddhism was a little too risky. But could I still found Hinduism? Only time would tell. I had to wait four more somewhat anxious turns to find out.





Cool! Madrid is now a holy city and can later host a gold-generating shrine. I did not convert to Hinduism just yet, though. I don't need the happy boost until Madrid grows to its cap, and I'd rather see what the diplomatic situation is like with any neighbours I may have before making a religious commitment.

Meanwhile, I changed Madrid's tile assignments to speed up the build of the Work Boat, now that I didn't need the lake's commerce boost for research:



And speaking of research, with one religious tech out of the way, I started on the path to Bronze Working, via Mining.

My Warrior, moving ever further westward while exploring north to south and back again, began running into the other civs. First off, an exploratory Archer from England showed up:



My favourite redhead. Well, she's up there with Batgirl and Gillian Anderson, anyway. I have not yet determined exactly where her territory is. If she's far enough away, Elizabeth may be a convertee rather than a potential victim. We'll see.

And look who else showed up:



Good to see we have one of the new BtS leaders in this game, since we didn't see any, strangely, in the last one, even with all the colonies that popped up. And Charlemagne went and founded Buddhism, meaning that his capital is also a holy city.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Yes, Isabella was hissing in my ear this time, her fingernails biting into my shoulders, leaving those little half-moon shapes that are kind of embarrassing when you go to the local swimming pool. "The Buddhist heretic must die!" she snarled, and I had to nod my head in agreement. The HRE capital would be another shrine city to add to the one I already have and the others we're anticipating. If Buddhism is the faith that spreads to England, we could always do the politically expedient thing and convert to it. Bronze Working was on its way, and I crossed my fingers and hoped for copper somewhere nearby.

Back in Madrid, both Work Boats were now complete. The city had grown relatively quickly to 3 pop, and it was time to start on a Worker.



Working both clams and the plains hill seemed to provide the fastest combination for the build, not to mention a little extra commerce for research.

Thus, after 45 turns, in 2875 BC...



I switched civics immediately. I love being able to do this anarchy-free. I've become very used to being very conservative about civics changes when playing as a non-Spiritual leader. Sometimes I have to remind myself, when I'm playing as a Spiritual leader, that I don't have to wait to do several civics changes at once, or that I can just change civics for 5 turns for whatever reason and then quickly change back.



And so... where's the copper? Anywhere nearby?



Isabella gasped softly, then her anticipatory laughter was low and malevolent in my ear...

And that's where I ended the round. I think it makes sense to research The Wheel next in order to hook up the copper as soon as possible.

Here's a look at the map as revealed thus far:



My Warrior, now with Woodsman I, was exploring south and west around HRE territory when he spotted a jaguar watching him from a hill 2 tiles away. Since the Warrior was on open ground with no cover in sight, I pulled him back in the other direction. He's heading north just outside of the Holy Roman Empire's western border.

So what next? With Charlemagne so close by, I think I'm going to have to hurry if I want to get a couple more cities built. It looks like the coastal desert hill to the northwest, claiming the cows, wheat, and clams, would be a good spot. Another one might be 1W of the corn, claiming another clam tile, 2 flood plains, and the wine 2N of that spot. I could put a city on the grassland hill 3S 1W of Madrid (cows and wine), but that's a lower priority. I eagerly await your dot maps.

As far as immediate builds go. The potential is definitely there to axe-rush Charlemagne. But I'll have to hurry, otherwise his capital will quickly grow to a 60% defense bonus, and how much money do you want to bet that it's on a hill? I might have time to found one more city before I need to start pumping out axes, and I might not even have time for barracks.

This would rule out Stonehenge, since I'd need the hammers for one, maybe two Settlers, and then Axes. But with an early religion now in hand, I don't really need the 'henge. As several of you have pointed out, once I have Priesthood (which I can now research any time), I can build temples and run priest specialists to help generate Great Prophets, so I can do without Stonehenge's GP points. Despite the lack of marble so far, the Oracle is still a goal, and I have several forests to chop it, so let's keep that in mind.

The saved game file is below.
 

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I think here Settlers are your priority. Stonehenge wasnt absolutely necessary, though I think maybe the Oracle is the one to go for now. Charlemagne should be eliminated early, nabbing another holy city is always good.
 
I think here Settlers are your priority. Stonehenge wasnt absolutely necessary, though I think maybe the Oracle is the one to go for now. Charlemagne should be eliminated early, nabbing another holy city is always good.
Yeah, especially if it's a capital to boot. We saw how powerful the early capture of a rival capital can be in the Peter game.
 
Hey .. weren't you gonna found Christianity for some historical accuracy ?
Either way, a good starting point with lots of food and lots of forests for early production. My idea for a 2nd city - 1W of the corn .. grabs clams, wine + has a river and can also serve as a good launching point for your axe rush. I do suggest you grab Stonehenge, form your 2nd city and then start making axemen. The Oracle is not important if you can kill Charlie.
 
Yes, Isabella was hissing in my ear this time, her fingernails biting into my shoulders, leaving those little half-moon shapes that are kind of embarrassing when you go to the local swimming pool. "The Buddhist heretic must die!" she snarled, and I had to nod my head in agreement.

I love you, man. Just make sure you tame that shrew, pardner. ;)

Good job on Polyhinduism, even though I was the head cheerleader of the pro-Stonehenge faction. Hopefully you can get the One True Faith (tm) to spread naturally and get border pops without having to invest in missionaries or monuments.

Since you're so close to Charlie, you have to REX now just out of self-defense. If you can beat Charlie there, I like the riverside/coastal tile 8W, 1S from Madrid (clams, corn, wine, and two floodplains in the BFC), though you miss out on some hills. Alternatively, the floodplains square 7W of Madrid gets two hills but loses the clams and the coastal access.

For the third city, check out the desert hill 1 SE of the wheat tile to the NE of Madrid. Clams, wheat, cows, and a hill defensive bonus (hard to think of a better use for a desert hill, come to think of it).

That leaves you with a "tweener" city to grab the southern cow and wine and some of the central grassland tiles. Some overlap is bound to happen, but since you'll be running a lot of priests in Madrid, no biggie. 4W 1S of Madrid gets you the goodies, but no coastal access.

If you decide to build the Oracle, I would wait until after you've settled two cities, since you don't have a lot of elbow room on this map. Metal Casting for the free tech and a cheap Colossus (from copper) await!

Don't axe rush Charlie. He's protective and as you mentioned has high cultural defenses. Why not try for a sword & catapult attack after popping Theology so you can crank out 5 xp units? If you went that way, that leaves you with a tech path something like:

*EDITED after due reflection*

The Wheel
Pottery
Priesthood
*Agriculture (missed this. *doh*)
Animal Husbandry
*Sailing (gives you trade routes with coastal cities, so they can build axes too without roads. Plus lighthouses)
Writing
*Monarchy (bigger happy caps and wineries)
Iron Working
Masonry
*Monotheism (opens up Theology, allows missionaries without monasteries, extra production)
Mathematics
Construction
 
Don't axe rush Charlie. He's protective and as you mentioned has high cultural defenses. Why not try for a sword & catapult attack after popping Theology so you can crank out 5 xp units? If you went that way, that leaves you with a tech path something like:

The Wheel
Pottery
Priesthood
Animal Husbandry
Writing
Iron Working
Mathematics
Masonry
Construction

Damn! I forgot he was protective!

Looks like the axe rush is out of the window here.
 
I wouldn't wait until Swords.

Thing is, you have very limited space to expand into, and chances of Iron being there, well.. You have Copper already in it. Admittedly, sometimes you get lucky, but do you feel like pushing it? Chances are, you wont get Iron, and thus cant build even Macemen, should you even make it that far.

It'll cost like hell to axerush the holy capitol of Charlie, but.. man's gotta do, eh?
Especially for Isabel's sake.. ;)

I'd also settle 1W of the Corn, if at all possible. Chances are, Charlie might settle SW of there, which looks like an "ok" spot for a town, grabbing both Ivory and Cows while being on fresh water and coast. We'll see.
 
So Fierabras, you were right, pursuing Buddhism was a little too risky.

I have to say, going for Hinduism seemed even riskier, but then again fortune favors the bold. I think I am more of a safe player, hell, I even like the Protective trait. Speaking of which, do you dare going against those protective archers of Charlemagne? (although there does not seem to be an alternative, considering the map).

Macemen can be build with copper, right?
 
Here is a message from Good Queen Bess from the wires of Reuters.

From Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth to Her Highness Queen Isabella.
Your Majesty, we have had more than enough aggravation from you bloody Continentals, what with Romans, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Scandihooligans, Norman French, French French and now the cruel, proud and haughty Don. If you are thinking of building an Armada I say forget it.
Here's why:-

Drakes Drum.
By Sir Henry Newbolt. (Who he? ed).

Take my drum to England,
Strike it when your powder's running low,
When the Don sights Devon,
I'll quit the port of heaven,
And we'll drum them up the Channel,
As we drummed them long ago.

Felicitations,
Q. E.
 
My Advice
1) Forget Stonehenge, leave some forrests so you can chop out the oracle.
2) Settle two cities, I like the ones you mentioned.
3) Axe-rush the Heathen Buddhist. If you cannot take the Holy Roman Capital, pillage everything you can. Leave old Chuck in the teching dust and finish him off with Swords and Cats.
4) I still opt for COL from teh oracle but metal casting is real tempting with copper so close.

Techwise, lower priority on Pottery, AH, unless they come real cheap. math/Construction before IW. Add Meditiation if going for COL (come on, you know you want another religion). Judaism is the one I don't think you can get.

But the bottom line is to eliminate Charlemane before he can build barracks (CGII archers). You do want to be giving him alot of imperialistic GGs by killing yourself on his capital. One very fast a decisive attack, you will need cats.
 
you won't be able to pull off an axe rush against him without devestating losses. it would take 10 cr1 axes to take his city and that might not even do it. the ai now especially with solver's patch is likely to have 4-5+ archers on the capitol, and will whip 1 per turn while you close distance with the capitol.

rex while you can.. you might want to deviate research to sailing.. you will probably need to make use of galleys in order to expand. come back for him after you have cats and can negate his protective bonus.

but you cannot wait too long.. his UU is a scary beast if things get that far.. you can forget about using knights at that point.

this one is gonna be tough.. looking forward to it.

NaZ
 
I think an ax rush might just be doable if you can do it before charlie has built up too many archers or nabbed a second city. Whether or not you can afford to delay the oracle or expansion for that long is a decision for better civ players than I.
By the way, when I read that your warrior saw a jaguar, I at first thought you ment that mony was on the map. But I assume jaguars are new bts animals?
 
Priority now has to be at least one settler, maybe desert hill between wheat and clams (grabs the cows as well giving you an alternative GP farm). There's a reasonable chance that Chuck will get a settler out before you do, a lot will depend on which direction he settles. If he settles towards you then your game will get interesting.
 
Look at all those floodplains around Charlie's capital.

If this was the level I play at (prince), I'd say "Axe-Rush! Axe-Rush! Axe-Rush!" Holy City + high food Enemy Capital = Excellent future Wall Street City.

I'm tempted to recommend try a five axemen rush anyways. If you're lucky, you would find his city with only one or two archers level 1 protective archers. If you're unlucky, then you could park those axemen on some excellent defensive terrain, and ****** his growth until your Catapults come online.

In any case, the Buddhist heretics must die! die! die! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha *cough* *hack* -ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
 
if he tries to turn it into an SG tho, no way, you gotta take the rounds, i ain't playing a game here where everybody can see it :p

Oh go on it'd be fun , we could call it the Kmad Challenge, it'd be legendary Im sure.

And for something "on topic" if the copper is being worked, does that not give you access to the resource? which would mean The Wheel isnt such a priority untill you have a 2nd city. Please correct me if Im wrong on this.
 
"There's a reasonable chance that Chuck will get a settler out before you do, a lot will depend on which direction he settles. If he settles towards you then your game will get interesting."

his second trait is imperialistic. he gets a production bonus on settlers the way you get one on workers. moreso in fact, 50% vs 25%. so i'd say there's a high chance he gets a settler out before we do.

"Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Yes, Isabella was hissing in my ear this time, her fingernails biting into my shoulders, leaving those little half-moon shapes that are kind of embarrassing when you go to the local swimming pool. "The Buddhist heretic must die!" she snarled, and I had to nod my head in agreement. The HRE capital would be another shrine city to add to the one I already have and the others we're anticipating. If Buddhism is the faith that spreads to England, we could always do the politically expedient thing and convert to it."

yup. <3 spiritual and <3 free holy cities. heck it'll be the culturally expedient thing to do anyway, to get his capital a border pop, unless you're still NSR.

"As far as immediate builds go. The potential is definitely there to axe-rush Charlemagne. But I'll have to hurry, otherwise his capital will quickly grow to a 60% defense bonus, and how much money do you want to bet that it's on a hill?"

protective on a hill holy city, blech. and, since he's imperialistic, if we try before we're ready and we end up not finishing him off, just giving him exp while we earn exp but not his holy city ... he gets his first GG before we do. that's not good.

but the key thing ...

"My favourite redhead. Well, she's up there with Batgirl and Gillian Anderson, anyway."

DUDE!!!! you know i don't flame, but watch out buster i'm fixin' to and trying to hold myself back some. you forgot "and KMad" *glare* :spank:. well i hope it was just forgetting anyway (must hold back the giggling too!)

By the way, when I read that your warrior saw a jaguar, I at first thought you ment that monty was on the map. But I assume jaguars are new bts animals?

my bet is that he meant panther, which is a barb animal, but not new to BtS.

random ramblings thrown in of course, since this post is from me:

my second BtS game, i was on a lower level than you are, playing Ramesses yo try the war(chariot)monger thing (which i suck at) but of course throw in shiny wonders too. Charlie was north of me, no point in keeping him alive since i'd wiped JC off the map pronto. i had some war chariots and a few axes left over from that was, and the bonus lovely city of Rome. i pumped out oodles more chariots quick as i could. a couple axes stayed by his second city which was hooking up his copper, so that i could pillage it pronto, too long a hike for them to get up to capitalville. i never saw any swords, so i just assumed he didn't have iron, learned it myself and found out that was true.

it cost me so many ponies OMG! i'm not used to losing that many troops, i'm the queen of waiting to declare until i'm overprepared to the point of absurd. but his holy capital wasn't on a hill, i had enough to throw away some, and the godsend was that right before i declared, he sent part of the uberscary skyhigh stack of archers in the capital out with a settler. the warchariots helped a ton, immune to his first strikes.

it sure was fun! first time meeting mr OMG scary and i pounded him, go me *giggle*. i knew the heretic had to die early or i was completely done for :eek:.
 
If it was my game I would try a axe rush ASAP, before that Karl starts to pile prot archers in his cities, chopping axes if needed.... but that is a high stake gamble, and the game would be seriously compromised if the rush fails.

The best path is the one tat pigswill suggested: build ASAP a settler and settle between your capitol and HRE one. Even if you want to war HRE later, it would be better to do it from a 2/3 city base than from a city-state empire... ;)
 
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