ALC Game #5: England/Victoria

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah the basic 'problems' ie (requires MM) for whipping is based on this fact

Unhappiness, Population used, and Hammers Generated are All calculated Seperately

Using the Granary as an example... you had 20 / 60

Calculating population needed
40 production is needed, and you get a 100% bonus so,
Pop=40 /(30+100%)
Pop=40/60
Round up
=1 pop needed

Calculating the production you get
The game say they whipped it, whipping gives 30 hammers each so
20+30=50 (not enough so...
50+30=80 (thats enough good for us
Then you obviously readjusted your citizens to get 8 more Hammers, four more base to have 28 overflow
However because you just came off a Granary +100% bonus, the overflow is Down adjusted to 14, which is then added to your base production in the next screen (post-whip) for a total of 21 H to be applied to whatever.

Happiness... this is the easiest, any time you whip it adds 10 turns to unhappiness.


So any city has one of two things restraining the whip
Food
or
Unhappiness

To get the most production out of a Population unit, (Food-limited city), You need to have a bonus, 25% and 50% are better than 100%, because the amount you get is rounded up under certain circumstances, down in others.
So population that should give 37 hammers (30 production with a 25% bonus) will give either 30 or 60 depending on the need.

So with a 25% bonus,
38-60 remaining=2pop, 60 Hammers
31-37 remaining=1pop, 60 Hammers (because 30 wouldn't be enough)
1-30 remaining=1pop, 30 Hammers


Now With London, high food, you will be Happiness limited, which means the most important thing is getting the most Hammers per whip

Basically this is rather easy, whip things that still have 31+ hammers left to go
Also whip things that have 61+ hammers left to go.



As a simple tool, the game Tells you
how much Population a whip costs, and
how much unhappiness you will get

To figure out the third fact about a Whip (How many Hammers it will get you)

Look at the amount of production left
1-30=30 Hammers
31-60=60 Hammers
61-90=90 Hammers
This has NO effect from bonuses at all

 

[Sisiutil]

So, based on the forgoing discussion (correct me if I'm wrong here), I should:

• Wait one turn until London is down to 1 turn to grow its population
• Place an Axeman ahead of the Oracle in London's build queue
• Whip the Axeman immediately

This should yeild an overflow of hammers that go towards the Oracle. Since I last whipped in 1840 for the granary and it's now 1320, the happiness penalty should have expired in 1440--we're still going 40 years/turn, IIRC.

Good suggestion, Pigswill, to work the wine instead of the cows, especially since I'll compensate through the chop-n-drop early production rush method to get the Oracle built.

There are barbs sniffing around, but curiously, none have entered my borders yet. As I recall, they won't do that until there are at least 2*n cities on the continent, where n is the number of civs on the continent. Since I have 3 and Monty and George have at least 2, it surprises me that they haven't attacked yet; no doubt they will soon. So I like the idea of whipping that Axeman in London.

Also, "floodplains central", to London's NE, should be my next city, I think. Part of its initial purpose will be fog-busting and protecting the supply route from the copper to my other cities. Barbs have a nasty tendency to pillage ALL improvements, including roads.

 

[vormuir]

There's a story about Queen Victoria and then-Empress Eugenie of France.

Eugenie was a fabulous beauty, and dressed the part -- bare-shoulder silk dresses, fantastic hair, jewels. Victoria was, well, Victoria. Eugenie was vivacious, a great conversationalist, and probably bisexual. Victoria was, well, Victoria. Eugenie created the fashions across Europe for a generation. Victoria... you got it.

One day Victoria was visiting Paris, and the two queens went to the Opera. They came into the box together. As was customary in those days, the crowd rose, and the two royal ladies bowed as one. While this was happening, servants came in behind them and quickly, quietly and efficiently furnished the box -- putting down a little table with librettos and opera glasses, and placing chairs immediately behind the two royal bottoms.

When the bowing was over, Eugenie looked behind her, saw her chair was there, and sat down.

Victoria never looked around. She just sat.

I love that story.


Waldo

 

[Betafor]

Am i stupid or do i just not get it... or i get it and its not funny?

Anyway, yes sissituil, that's the strategy that i'm suggesting, and yes, that should be your next city...
Now do the next round?

 

[Nares]

Am i stupid or do i just not get it... or i get it and its not funny?

I believe the point is that Victoria didn't need to turn around. Perhaps she had enough faith in her servants. Perhaps they had a healthy mix of fear and respect for her. Perhaps it was a combination of both.

The French Empress, in turning around, indicated the lack of command she had over her servants. She must have had some expectation that the chair would be misplaced, an expectation likely generated (and probably reinforced) by previous mistakes made by her servants.

The story shows how strong a leader Victoria was.

As far as it being funny, well, that's a matter of opinion. I'm sure it's quite the joke over in England. I don't think, if you told it in France, it would be so well received.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

For fogbusting in the ice and tundra, you might want to build yourself some chariots in a city with a barracks. If you give them Flanking as their first promotion, that will put them 1 XP away from Sentry and its +1 visibility range. Stick those guys on some conveniently located hills, and you should be able to cover most of the area with 3 or 4 chariots. They need to run away from axemen, but they can easily kill warriors or archers, and as long as you can keep a watchful eye on any stray axemen, you mostly don't need to actually kill them.

 

[pigswill]

From my english perspective (though I wouldn,'t presume to speak for the whole country) the Victoria story is not intended to be funny; its a comment on royal self-assurance (with self-assurance as a positive quality in royalty) i.e. Victoria was more 'royal' than Eugenie.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

So, based on the forgoing discussion (correct me if I'm wrong here), I should:

• Wait one turn until London is down to 1 turn to grow its population
• Place an Axeman ahead of the Oracle in London's build queue
• Whip the Axeman immediately

I'm not entirely sure about the "Whip the Axeman immediately" step. It shouldn't be right, but my tests indicate that it is.

There's supposed to be a 50% markup when you rush something that you haven't started yet. You can see that the markup is there by hovering over the cash rush button.
Axeman at (1/35) costs 102 gold (3 * 34 )
Axeman at (0/35) costs 156 gold (3 * (35 * 3 / 2 ) )

In other words, rushing an axe with no hammers invested costs 52 hammers, instead of 35, so rushing two pop should have an overflow of 8 hammers.

Instead, the overflow is 25 hammers.

In the old country, we call that a bug.

I think it's a bug independent of the "bags of hammers" bug. They differ in that this bug can be avoided, where the bag of hammers requires you to screw or be screwed.

 

[pigswill]

Simpleton question;what if you start the axe when city's two turns from growth, then pop-rush it next turn when city's one turn from growth?

 

[Eggolas]

NE of London is a nice spot as you've identified. I'm surprised you have not been swarmed from the north with barbarians as yet. If you place a city there, expect to be visited promptly.

You have an opportunity to drive Monty deep into the jungle for his expansion. The 7-tile cultural boundary to the east is undoubtedly his capital, which means that his other cities must already be south and west. If you can find a blocking positon to the east, roughly north of his capital, he can be relegated to jungle clearing for a long time.

The coastal river tile to the NW of London looks very nice also, capturing the fish resource. It would be fun to build from coast to coast north of Monty, driving him deeper into the jungle with massive turn advantage for Victoria. Also, expansion to the north is reasonable, as is the move towards the SSW to the coast as well.

The CS Slingshot is so much fun to execute and coupled with Stonehenge, a real crowd pleaser. You'll likely get it as well. I might forego it to expand to a few choice locations, blocking Monty from heading north, but it would probably require some better garrison troops.

Lots of options still ahead.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'm not entirely sure about the "Whip the Axeman immediately" step. It shouldn't be right, but my tests indicate that it is.

There's supposed to be a 50% markup when you rush something that you haven't started yet. You can see that the markup is there by hovering over the cash rush button.
Axeman at (1/35) costs 102 gold (3 * 34 )
Axeman at (0/35) costs 156 gold (3 * (35 * 3 / 2 ) )

In other words, rushing an axe with no hammers invested costs 52 hammers, instead of 35, so rushing two pop should have an overflow of 8 hammers.

Instead, the overflow is 25 hammers.

In the old country, we call that a bug.

I think it's a bug independent of the "bags of hammers" bug. They differ in that this bug can be avoided, where the bag of hammers requires you to screw or be screwed.

NO Remember, Hammers and Pop are SEPARATELY Calculated (ie the "bag of Hammers" bug)

New Axe

1. Calculate Pop cost
amount left=35
Modifiers applied=52
so number of population=52/30 Round up

2 population required (incidentially the same as with an axe with one in the box)


2. Calculate Production yield
Current amount=0/35
add 30=30/35 (not enough)
add 30=60/35 (enough)
so 60 production is added.

The Production Given is entirely unrelated to Bonuses/Penalties, etc. Those Only affect how much the population costs.

That is the "bag of hammers" bug with Rushing, otherwise MM Whipping wouldn't be nearly as useful, you would just whip whenever you felt you had some expendable population.


The same thing works with
Catapults (40*1.5 = 60 not enough to need an extra pop)
Horse Archers with a Forge (50*1.5=75 /1.25=60 not enough to need an extra pop)
etc.

For any Developers listening the basic way to fix it is to have the Hammer yield from the Whip = 30* # pop used * Bonuses & Penalties

Then the only MM would be making sure you are getting the best use by not getting unhappy people.

 

[Sisiutil]

The CS Slingshot is so much fun to execute and coupled with Stonehenge, a real crowd pleaser. You'll likely get it as well. I might forego it to expand to a few choice locations, blocking Monty from heading north, but it would probably require some better garrison troops.

Lots of options still ahead.

We are talking about a GP-bestowed CS Slingshot, right? This is Prince, after all, and I'm likely to have the Oracle finished (for Metal Casting) before I'm done researching Code of Laws.

I was going to do a dotmap, but it's difficult without the resources displayed. I won't do that again.

 

[Nares]

We are talking about a GP-bestowed CS Slingshot, right? This is Prince, after all, and I'm likely to have the Oracle finished (for Metal Casting) before I'm done researching Code of Laws.

Nah, a pure CS slingshot was entirely possible if you had focused more on Cottages. You didn't build a single one in London, and you delayed founding the NE Flood Plains city (which would have 3-4 more).

In my own shadow game, I finished research on CoL some three turns before The Oracle completed, though I had used whip overflow to partially complete The Oracle, and had passed on the Copper site in the east (because I ended up wandering into the western coast before founding England, which had the Fish and irrigated Wheat resources).

 

[Eggolas]

We are talking about a GP-bestowed CS Slingshot, right? This is Prince, after all, and I'm likely to have the Oracle finished (for Metal Casting) before I'm done researching Code of Laws.

I was going to do a dotmap, but it's difficult without the resources displayed. I won't do that again.

Actually, I was thinking that you're likely to get the Civil Service Slingshot via Oracle after finishing Code of Laws, based on it being Prince level.

If you find yourself finishing the wonder too early, just advance a settler or something in the build order.

 

[pigswill]

Do you follow your instincts (metallic oracle) or please the panel (bureaucratic oracle)?Do you get more benefit from forges or bureaucracy/chain irrigation? Maces are still way down the line, Colossus unlikely to be a priority on this map (maybe Monte on the Lake will build it for you? It would certainly makes sense for his capital).
Tech-wise what's after CoL? Ironworking? Alphabet/Literature?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I think it's a bug independent of the "bags of hammers" bug.

NO Remember, Hammers and Pop are SEPARATELY Calculated (ie the "bag of Hammers" bug)

I agree - but this isn't screwing up hammers and pop, this is screwing up cost.

The BoH bug gives you the wrong number of hammers for the amount of population you use. This bug is giving you the right number of hammers, but charging the wrong cost for the unit.

NEW_HURRY_MODIFIER isn't a production modifier, like a forge; it's a cost modifier, like those associated with Wonders (iHurryCostModifier in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml). These calculations all show up in CvCity::hurryCost.
(Maybe it should be....)

So the problems are independent in two important respects. (1) you can avoid exploiting this one, by not new_rushing units, (2) fixing the BoH bug won't necessarily fix this one.

 

[Sisiutil]

Do you follow your instincts (metallic oracle) or please the panel (bureaucratic oracle)?Do you get more benefit from forges or bureaucracy/chain irrigation? Maces are still way down the line, Colossus unlikely to be a priority on this map (maybe Monte on the Lake will build it for you? It would certainly makes sense for his capital).
Tech-wise what's after CoL? Ironworking? Alphabet/Literature?

CS or MC Oracle? Hmmm. In my non-ALC Prince games, I get beaten to the Oracle if I delay it at all. In fact, I have a general rule: Stonehenge gets one chop, Oracle gets two. I find if I don't do that on Prince, I get beaten to those wonders. I have yet to pull off a CS Slingshot on Prince.

I'll switch some tile assignments and see how long CoL/Oracle will take. I'm inclined to take the free tech and not get over-ambitious. Since I'm not philosophical, Oracle's GP points will be handy, and another reason I don't want to miss out on it. Strategically, I also like depriving it to another Civ.

Respectfully, gang, it's a little late to be urging a CS Slingshot. In the pre-game show, the debate was over Oracle for CoL or MC; CS never came up. I would have played the opening turns very differently--more or less as Nares said he played them, plus a more streamlined tech path--if that's what I was going after. But I will keep it in mind the next time I play as a Financial civ.

So probably Oracle for MC, then finish researching CoL. After that, given that I'm planning on taking two holy cities, I think it makes sense to go Mathematics -> Construction for Catapults, then back to Alphabet -> Polytheism -> Literature for Heroic Epic and the Great Library.

 

[Eggolas]

Respectfully, gang, it's a little late to be urging a CS Slingshot.

You are about 20 turns away from CoL if you rework tiles, right? It's only 1320AD. The Oracle can be delayed with an advance build so that it's timed to come in right after the CoL.

Whether or not it was discussed in the pre-game show is really irrelevant. Civ IV is about flexibility and seizing opportunities that present itself. While it's a calculated risk to pursue the CS slingshot, the downside is that you will lose an advanced tech but gain a lot of gold to upgrade promoted units.

I've pursued a CS slingshot on Monarch all the way to 600AD successfully. Sometimes unsuccessfully. But the gold you will receive may be well worth the risk.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree - but this isn't screwing up hammers and pop, this is screwing up cost.

The BoH bug gives you the wrong number of hammers for the amount of population you use. This bug is giving you the right number of hammers, but charging the wrong cost for the unit.

NEW_HURRY_MODIFIER isn't a production modifier, like a forge; it's a cost modifier, like those associated with Wonders (iHurryCostModifier in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml). These calculations all show up in CvCity::hurryCost.
(Maybe it should be....)

So the problems are independent in two important respects. (1) you can avoid exploiting this one, by not new_rushing units, (2) fixing the BoH bug won't necessarily fix this one.

Actually it would, the "Cost" in population Is calculated Correctly, it always takes into effect all modifiers (both cost and production)

(52 means it should cost 2 Pop... which it does)

For it to be correct, each population should yield 30/1.5 or 20 Hammers for a total of 40 Hammers.

That is the problem, the "Bags of Hammers" are inflexible, always 30... however they should change based on the circumstances.

The problem is the Yield is not calculated correctly

We now return you to your regularly scheduled ALC, we apologize for the inconvenience as we are sure Sisitul is not amused.


PS I think MC with Oracle +CS with a Prophet is perfectly reasonable

 

[Hans Lemurson]

PS I think MC with Oracle +CS with a Prophet is perfectly reasonable

I agree with this too. Sure getting CS with the oracle would be nice; it's a 1500-beaker beast, but I think that the risk of delaying the Oracle too long is not acceptable. Remember that if you fail to get the Oracle, your failure is 100% and you get NO technology. Getting 700-beaker Metal Casting is a fair trade for the certainty of its acquisition, especially since this gets you Forges and 1 step closer to Macemen.

Half of the reason for building Stonehenge and the Oracle (aside from their obvious benefits) was for the Great Prophet Points. A Great Prophet will give you 1200-1300 beakers on CS, which is practicly an oracle in its own right. The fact that it does not finish the tech is good, because it means that it got used as efficiently as possible, as opposed to the Oracle which can almost never be "used most efficiently".

Since your only Great-People point sources for a while are going to be these two wonders, you'll get another Prophet coming along soon enough to build you your Confucian Shrine. You can wait 50 turns more can'tcha?