All Civ 4 BTS buildings ranked and explained - Henrik

[sampsa]

i think grocer & bank definitely out perform market and i definitely build them more than walls. health is a big problem in factory era and grocers are the best way to deal with it since you get 3-4 health and money, and open up supermarket issue. markets are awful because 3/4 of its resources go obsolete in that era... super stupid.

Yes market is probably the weakest building of the three, but you can build it early. I say probably because is so much more important than at that stage of the game. At factories indeed starts to actually matter.

Walls I put rather high because it's an awesome build under the right circumstances. Nom nom GG-points thanks to your unfriendly neighbor.

but then again you have academy lower than a monastery, different perspective and different playstyle so i won't question it too much.

Yes, because I think even a monastery gives better bang for buck. Obs/uni too, but they are late.

 

[Henrik75]

I think you are underrating academy, although many may overrate it, it's better than B tier. I mean that 50% is a lot, especially when your capital is the primary source of income. Yes it takes 50-60 turns to equal a bulb but it helps you reach currency, code of laws, civil service, aesthetics music if you go that route all faster - which has compounding benefits; you get the great library faster, you get more scientists faster, you get bureaucracy a few turns earlier, sure you have 1 less bulb for education or philosophy, but I don't sit around in pacifism all game anyway, I built infrastructure and settle many more cities or smash them with knight/trebs or cannons.

Yes you can build market early, but that's just a trap for new players. you're lucky to have 1 of those resources in the BCs, and 1 happiness and some income (while your slider is still probably very high) is an awful deal for 150 hammers, more of a trap than anything - soon as you get currency you want to run wealth, not build markets. The only time I would ever build a market is if I have both forge + organized religion to take 1/3 off the cost, and if my slider is actually low and the happiness helps.
FTR forge easily beats market in this case because the hammers are much more useful than the gold, and its cheaper, and probably more happiness too.

 

[sampsa]

I do think 50% is a lot. I think 10% is a lot, which is why I often build monasteries in the capital, even when the purpose is not spreading religion. Some 10 years ago when I already had some deity wins I would mostly build an academy in my capital. Now I only sometimes do, when the capital is very suitable for it or perhaps as a PHI leader with a mediocre capital.

The issue is the price. You are mainly competing with the philo bulb and it's just very hard to beat that, because paci makes future so much cheaper. Yes you can do both, an academy and a philo bulb, in which case you are paying more for the 2nd .

I don't think your claim that an academy has compounding benefits is necessarily valid. Doesn't earlier access to pacifism also have compounding benefits? Are you sure that it compounds less than an academy? Note also how this line aligns perfectly with my contempt towards buildings in general. Frankly it is what causes it. No point in whipping mediocre buildings because in caste+paci size does matter. As a bonus, you have philo as a trade bait, though it's often better to hold the monopoly.

I don't sit around in pacifism all game anyway, I built infrastructure and settle many more cities or smash them with knight/trebs or cannons.

You should spend the minimal possible amount of time in pacifism, intending to go to war when you have the techs for it. Consider the possibility that you can do exactly the thing you do with less infrastructure.

As you probably know, I have seen your games and I think you play very well. I can say that I've learned from your games. I don't agree with every decision that you make. To me style is an excuse, it's more a matter of what you (here and in the following sentences I don't mean you in particular) are used to and feel comfortable with. I try to always force myself to question my habits and aim to investigate new possibilities. That's how I learn. The fact that you can beat deity doesn't mean that you are doing everything the best possible way, not even close to it. I hope you haven't stopped questioning your habits.

 

[Henrik75]

That's fair going into pacifism earlier can potentially be better; However personally I am never in a rush to switch into it, idk - I often need to use organized religion because I am still building stuff in cities and spreading religions around (pacifism is useless if you only have the desired religion in one city)
I like to do caste pacifism as a duo civic swap, and stay in slavery+OR until then. You might be right, tbh great people are my weakest area and I always struggle to line it up, the golden ages and the civic swaps the most. especially in isolation maps trying to get a golden age and maybe a merchant out while teching to cannons and producing units. So yes I am well aware I still have a lot to improve on and I learn a lot reading what you and others have to post. I think I would just stop playing the game altogether if I thought I couldn't improve further.

Even Lain whom I learnt most of my technical gameplay from, I disagree with several of his decisions, I think everyone has their own strategies and game plan which will work better than others on some maps and worse than others on others. I don't think academy in the capital is too big of a price, because I am not usually ready to go into pacifism at the time of the first scientist anyway; sometimes I go the whole game without using that civic if I am engineering rushing - then the academy is a much stronger play and you can get a 2nd guy out for a golden age pre-attack push easily in time.

Also even though we disagree on a lot I do learn a lot from your different perspectives and the whole skip forge / settle on gold theories do have me thinking. While I don't support them 100% I do consider these options, like whipping cuirs in a slower developing city without a forge or settling on a gold to claim a better position and have more food in the city. So thank you as always for what you have to say

 

[sampsa]

I often need to use organized religion because I am still building stuff in cities and spreading religions around (pacifism is useless if you only have the desired religion in one city)

Yes, org rel makes sense if you plan to build many buildings. I tend to use it only with SPI leaders. Also if you run org rel the value of monastery goes down (except in capital, imo) so it makes sense you don't value it as high as I do.

Even Lain whom I learnt most of my technical gameplay from, I disagree with several of his decisions, I think everyone has their own strategies and game plan which will work better than others on some maps and worse than others on others

Yes, even if I've been around for a looong time, I'd say I've learnt the most from Lain. I'm not saying he plays perfect, but the results speak for themselves. I think it's important not to get stuck in your own game plan. Be like water.

 

[Core Imposter]

The game is too one dimensional if you can practice unrestricted warfare, so I use house rules to limit that. This brings many buildings into play that would normally be superfluous. But I have yet to devise a ruleset that has a practical purpose for all of them.

I enjoy the odd things like building a privateer fleet and keep it sailing for 150 turns. Lends nothing to winning efficiency but the best path to the quickest win is overrated in terms of enjoyment. Creating a set of house rules that requires new and different things can be a blast.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I like the academy for culture victory, not space victory.

Health improvements are mostly for cities with national wonders, or for cities assigned to build spaceship parts. It takes map knowledge and diplomatic blocs to become established before you know which are your major cities, including the palace, so don't rush to build them too early.

Try to get city improvements that unlock national wonders, either by building them or capturing them. You can't capture theatres and universities.

Gold multiplier city improvements are for cities with a strong holy shrine or corporate headquarters.

In isolation or semi-isolation, below immortal difficulty, if there are no religions, them I strongly believe in founding one and building temples. I don't want to pay too much unit maintenance from relying solely on the hereditary rule civic.

 

[Gumbolt]

Not sure I have been using academy lately. Always seems to come too late and likely too aggressive in game play at times. It's not overly efficient to have a city run 2 scientists for 17 turns. Would have to be outside the capital. Sometimes you get lucky and capture an academy. I need to start building monst more for 10% bonus. Pends where you play game to. Most games on immortal seem to end in cuirs. If you are late on the academy or skip it holds less value?

Catapults/trebs seem situational. 1mp units slow you down so much. I guess on deity you need more of these units. Switching to theology/vassalage is a nice way for good xp. If you are aggressive barracks can be nice. Especially for Shaka. Sometimes I go market in capital for happiness. Pends how the games go. At size 18-20 things can get tough happiness wise. Probably need to be using Globe Theatre more on rifle whipping games. Would need a nice English game to test.

 

[sampsa]

I like the academy for culture victory, not space victory.

Interesting. I haven't really ever seriously investigated culture victories.

In isolation or semi-isolation, below immortal difficulty, if there are no religions, them I strongly believe in founding one and building temples. I don't want to pay too much unit maintenance from relying solely on the hereditary rule civic.

I kind of agree with founding a religion. 80 for 1 is a pretty awful deal, but might beat building a unit that you need to beat pay maintenance for, under some circumstances.

 

[antimony]

Academy is not great for culture because the opportunity cost is 4000 culture from a great artist instead, and you stop teching after liberalism usually. Bulb for philo is probably the best use for a GS, and then if you must win lib faster (which is not always the limiting factor), Edu partial bulb is probably worth more than academy.

To give a concrete example, I have a 1500 AD culture victory on emperor where one less great artist would have added 6 turns to victory. A bulb towards Edu would have saved me 6 turns to liberalism, but that's not equivalent because by the time I had liberalism (turn 122) I wasn't done building cathedrals, so those extra 6 turns of free speech would not have generated as much culture as the 6 turns from the artist in the end game. And an academy would have had at most 50 turns of usefulness if I used my first GS for it, but then later philo may be a bad tradeoff. Of course if PHI the calculation would be different.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

For this pissing contest of city improvements, what grade would you award the academy? I am confident it is not S-tier.

Off-topic: my reasoning

Spoiler :

Academy in capital to secure first to music for the great artist. I would settle the first great artist. I also want civil service sooner. I don't plan to get anymore great scientists or to lightbulb any more techs. I plan to brute-force philosophy, paper, education, liberalism. Is this all a mistake?

 

[Texas03]

I build Academies in most strong commerce capitals. Might be my play is not ideal but it's not rare that I find myself with a strong food city that doesn't have many good other tiles and can easily work scientists as I might have enough workers/settlers, no currency/alpha yet, nothing really useful to build etc. So the opportunity cost of getting a fairly early GS is not really that high on a lot of maps, while Philo bulb and Pacifism might be quite a while away (I play on IMM mostly, not Deity).
Another thing is that pretty often I'm not sure how the game is gonna go at that point. I might wanna break out at Engineering, but I can't be sure yet that Mansa and Co. aren't gonna pick up the pace and I might be forced to go all the way to Tanks or whatever later. So sure you may be able to do the math afterwards and come to the conclusion that another use for the GS or doing something other than run Scientists at that point would have been superior to an Academy, but that's hindsight.

It's an interesting conversation. I've pretty much always been doing it since watching Chris back in the day who did this also.

 

[sampsa]

I've pretty much always been doing it since watching Chris back in the day who did this also.

Don't know how much you've watched Lain, but I'm sure there would be quite many eye-openers.

That being said an academy is not a horrible "default" choice, especially if you aren't strategically that skilled yet, if you don't have a clear vision of when to win and how. It is useful no matter what you do. Which is obviously a bit beside the actual point.

 

[dankok8]

Good list OP.

Apart from the Academy, my only other major disagreement would be the Citadel which is honestly B tier for me. 5 XP for siege is nice but that late in the game you can get 2 promos out of the gate with just Barracks + one of Theocracy/Vassalage and it's easy to switch Civics as Izzy because Spi. This building is a small boon to be honest. Not to mention many games would be better going mounted anyways and Conquistadors are an unbelievable UU already available to you.

 

[awost1]

I think the thing about citadel is you can use it to get city raider 3 cannons on day 1 and surprise, those are pretty good.

 

[antimony]

You could argue siege is a more widely applicable and less risky strategy than mounted (e.g. don't need horses, wider window to use it), especially on harder difficulties and maps. It's just not as expedient.

 

[dankok8]

I think the thing about citadel is you can use it to get city raider 3 cannons on day 1 and surprise, those are pretty good.

Sure but with Barracks + a XP civic you get CR2 out of the gate. Citadels are quite expensive at 100 hammer cost. If no Stone, I honestly may not build it in many cities.

Not a bad building. If C tier is average, it definitely adds something so it's B tier. However OP said it's S tier and I don't see that at all.

 

[Core Imposter]

Does this list presume a military victory? I wonder how such a list might look in other types of play.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Regardless of victory type, most games have some military component.

Citadels are very strong. The CR3 promotion is very different from CR2. If you don't think they are very different, then don't use up all the promotions immediately. Use the extra promotion to heal when injured, and then keep advancing.

 

[awost1]

Yeah I was gonna say, CR3 adds potentially 40% to cannons, which is gonna move them from 18.6 to 23.4 - that’s a huge jump.