All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

[TM Moot]

Forget about IW and Vuiltures (for now), whip/chop some chariots and wipe out Ragnar. If you're lucky you can bag a worker or two as well as a couple of new cities.

Clear out the southern menace, then Oracle (if not to late) and Ziggs.

 

[Carabodes]

Nice round. Loved the cover prom., and the fact that you got archery for free. Sorry about the copper being so far away.
(Edit: And the stone, yummy, might even get the pyramids. )

Chariot-rushing Ragnar seems like the best idea, go him!
But might I suggest you first chop/whip an archer/settler for Validators green spot?
I have never played on levels above noble, so I don't know if that would ruin the possibility of a chariot rush when playing on emperor. I'm only thinking that having a third city up and running quickly could help with the unit production whilst at war, and green spot is a nice place for production and food. By founding green city you also secure the other source of horseyworseys and gain a lot of floodplains to help out with your economy once cottaged up. (Or you could have plenty loaves of bread and go wild with specialists. )

Tech-wise I would delay IW, go for priesthood (for the ziggurats) and the oracle right now, and research IW whilst the oracle being buildt. After all, we need IW for the jungle. What to get from the oracle if you beat the AI to it I'll leave to you, MC would be nice though.

The GS I would use on Washington. He'll last longer than Ragnar , and my experience with him is that he techs faster than Ragnar too. And why worry about trading with him when you can steel everything you need?
(In a short while he'll be dead anyway , and you will have optics and meet other people.)

the

 

[oldsaxon]

The main threat with Ragnar right now is that he might get a settler out. Keep a fogbuster (or two if necessary) on his north-eastern border so you can watch for one leaving... with the Great Wall up, you can spare the men.

If you see a settler leaving, it's probably worth going to war early. You'll stop him founding a city, kill an archer in the open, and snag a free worker. Add to that that his army's just as small as yours... but you probably have more production.

So, yeah. Build up an army for a chariot rush, asap... meanwhile watch his North-East border, and go to war if he wastes garrison on a settler escort.

EDIT: Send the GS to Washington, as others have said. Of course, that means Alphabet will become a tech goal (for spies) - I'd go Priesthood-Alphabet-steal/trade Washington's stuff-IW.

 

[TheArchduke]

The BTS AI ignores its early defense alot, but don´t count on that to last after 1000 BC. One Archer on the defence is still a monster and a 2nd one will be whipped even if you invade with chariots. So your first attack has to work and hurt.

Either you get 9 Chariots VERY soon, or I say leave him be. As soon as he got a 2nd archer he can rushbuild a 3rd one and if noone saw it that capital is on plains hills.

 

[reknaw]

The fact that Ragnar only has one archer in his capital makes me think that he has a setter en route to place his second city. If he settles NE of Nidaros there isn't much of a problem since your culture will block him in their anyway. I think it unlikely that he could have gone west, he would have been heading to Eridu's location if he had and we'd be able to see the escort unit.

 

[Andvare]

and if noone saw it that capital is on plains hills.

You sure about that? It looks to me to be plain plains (sorry about the bad pun), and Sissiutl said it was flat terrain.

He has to be able to build one in one turn, which requires slavery. Has he converted yet?

With free cover, I'd kill of both enemies, if the game was played on lower levels, or without tech trading that is.
A REX focused on limiting the AI's expansion abilities seems to be a viable solution. But what do I know, I haven't played on emperor since Civ2...

 

[cabert]

I vote for a chariot rush and researching toward ziggurats (to help facilitate REX, since you want a broad economic base against a strong mid-late game leader like Washington). I think that's a better strategy right now than IW, which will only be useful if it actually gives you iron.

agreed, although IW will be usefull to get good tiles currently in the jungle somewhat later. maintenance and spy points certainly matter more right now.
Ho, and I also second the advice about weighing 0 EP on ragnar and 1 on washington.

The BTS AI ignores its early defense alot, but don´t count on that to last after 1000 BC. One Archer on the defence is still a monster and a 2nd one will be whipped even if you invade with chariots. So your first attack has to work and hurt.

Either you get 9 Chariots VERY soon, or I say leave him be. As soon as he got a 2nd archer he can rushbuild a 3rd one and if noone saw it that capital is on plains hills.

Validator opened the trade screen and saw he already has a 2nd city.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a 3rd very soon.
Meaning that all hammers went into settlers .
get those horses asap. don't build barracks, you don't need those yet (a promotion on a chariot doesn't really help).
edit 1 : copper may be far away, but with a zyggurat it's not far enough to be rejected.
You can make a very nice fishing village there, with lakes and an irrigated something (wheat? I don't remember).

 

[r_rolo1]

^^I agree. Ragnar looks to focusing on ReX... I wounld not expect much of resistance ( especially if you notice that he's not growing the capitol's pop ), so maybe you'll need less than the proposed 9 chariots ( but 9 is a good number ). Of course you should expect atleast 2 archers, but you take the capitol, Ragnar is nothing

P.S I bet that there is a 2 archer + settler escort around there.... If you can find it before it settles, don't hesitate

 

[slobberinbear]

It looks like there's room for 1 or 2 more cities for Ragnar to expand into to the N/NE of Nidaros. Giving him that little bit of room should be enough to convince the AI to build settlers and not military. Which means it's time to strike.

Techwise, since you have horses I don't see the immediate benefit of iron working unless Ragnar has metal or your chariot rush fails. You already have barb protection from the great wall which largely made hunting + archery irrelevant, too.

I would focus on taking out Ragnar with chariots, teching to Ziggurats, and then pursuing a forward-placement REX strategy to block Washington, then backfilling and wiping out the barb cities as you could afford them.

 

[civ4legs]

^^I agree. Ragnar looks to focusing on ReX... I wounld not expect much of resistance ( especially if you notice that he's not growing the capitol's pop ), so maybe you'll need less than the proposed 9 chariots ( but 9 is a good number ). Of course you should expect atleast 2 archers, but you take the capitol, Ragnar is nothing

P.S I bet that there is a 2 archer + settler escort around there.... If you can find it before it settles, don't hesitate

I agree completely; the low capital pop and only one archer means he's been stalling growth for settlers and then sending defenders with them. I think chariot rush is the best bet at this point. As for iron, I would be shocked if he is close to it at this point, but it just means that you keep an eye out for mines: obviously one on a non-hill has to be iron, and try to get to ones on hills if you can spare the chariot.

It would definitely be worth getting rid of the rest of the fog on his land too. Can you sign open borders? Does signing open borders stop you from declaring war for 10 turns? I wouldn't worry about a settler escaping if you are going to chariot rush. In fact, it would help, as he would spend more hammers on non-military.

 

[madscientist]

My suggestion is to tech IW and start a chariot rush ASAP. Keep Ragnar down and prevent him vrom getting a good third or second city. You can also support your chariot rush with a few archers which have Drill I. I really don't think you need metals to ake Ragnar out.

As far as Washington, it depends how much land he cuts off and what the relations are. My guess is he has to go, but if he's small and a non-threat I think it's beneficial to keep him arround for quite awhile.

Teching: Go IW, Poly, Preist, Mono, Theocracy. The reason is you may need that AP just to keep it out of the AI hands. If Ragnar is gone and Washington crippled or killed, your going to need open borders to develope at emperor. The other continent is either going to be at each others throat in crusades, or holding hands and singing kumbaya. If the latter is the case your are going to be behind in tech and if you sign open borders, just 1 city converted can lead to an embarressing AP loss.

Do not ignore the slow religion pace, that cna lead to a big AI advantage on the other continent.

 

[wenz]

Imho Ragnar alreay built his 2. city...



...because a forrest is missing


On emperor the AI builds their 2. city real quick, maybe he is about to found his third...

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Just so your warned, Ragnar has an Archer on the Banana's to your NW....in the Barbarian cities fat cross.

So maybe Ragnars been making archers to take that city as his 3rd/2nd and making archers/settlers. City is size 5 at moment..it would seem you've sucessfully cut off all LAND routes. But if Ragnar gets SAILING, Galley's could settle cities on the Island masses to the SE, Or just sail around your blockade without crossing your cultural boundries...and Don't Viking Beserkers have Amphibious promotion, granted they are Maceman..

But the Viking Unique Building is the TRADING POST a building REPLACING A LIGHTHOUSE, which itself is enabled via SAILING. As Ragnar starts with Fishing, WOULDN'T you Tech to Sailing ASAP to enable the building , gain free Navigation 1, Especailly as your cut off via land routes.

Ragnar has a sailing boat in capital, and 1 archer, ALSO it looks like a TRADING POST has gone up in Capital.

So assumptions, Ragnar has 2nd city, has sailing, has trading post, has 1 archer and 1 work boat in capital at size 5. Has one archer in Barbarian city just to your NW. Has settled 2nd city containing 2 archers, Usual escort for Computer, Work boat to work clams, bonus for you when you take city. Hammers from Pastured cow (4F & 2 H)and mined grassland hill (1F & 3H) If a galley, could sail around and settle on Tundra to claim sheep/whale.

Conclussion, Hit Ragnar, Chop/whip charriots, attack via the Cow tile, deny its food/production, send in another via the Mined hill, Can't stop clam, Kill capital, then kill 2nd city to the NE, Ragnar now should be dead, UNLESS 3rd city is settled off coast on island, but doesn't seem any viable resources, more likely sheep/whale on Tundra.

P.S. don't forget the archer in the barbarian city, it'll pillage a tile or 3, nab a worker or 2 if your unlucky

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I join the chorus recommending an immediate chariot rush. Without it Ragnar will become very menacing very soon. If successful, you can later crush the barb cities, block the Americans, and Rex like mad over half the continent. We won't see the Vulture in action but we will exploit the UB and the creative trait.

The Vulture IMHO is an indifferent UU and dependent on copper and a nearby target to be useful.

 

[sveint]

If Ragnar researches Iron Working (and has Iron readily available), you could be in for a nasty shock

Iron Working also allows you to settle jungle cities to block off Washington

 

[athelious]

You don't really have Ragnar blocked in yet. it is going to be a long time before your culture blocks the coastal east of Uruk and south of Eridu.

Opton 1: build two more cities to complete block him. Continue to build your infrastucture.
Option 2: kill him now.
Option 3: keep chariots north of Uruk and west of Eridu to kill his settlers if he does try and sandwich you

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One thing to consider as a side note given the possible role of Ziggaurats+GW

Espionage points that you generate against anyone, or even Noone, are still used to determine the success of your spies and the cost of their missions. (and the failure of foreign spies and the cost of Thier missions)

so Espionage points generated against Washington+Ragnar will be help lower costs against civs across the sea (I'm betting Saladin given the choice of Islam)

 

[Validator]

One point that probably should be discussed before the next round is whether Nidaros should be razed or kept. Normally an AI capital is a prize worth keeping, but in this case I'm not sure there's much to be gained. I doubt Nidaros would have many buildings left after the capture, and any population that would be lost by razing would be quickly regrown when the city is refounded (which would of course require building a settler). However one thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post is that according to the trade screen Ragnar has 2 fish, both of which must be in the black south of Nidaros. Also the tile SW of Nidaros is already roaded which probably means there's a resource there. Depending on which resource it is you may want to keep Nidaros for the health/happiness boost.

The advantage to razing Nidaros is that it would be one less city that would have to be maintained during the early stage of the game. This would make it a bit easier financially to expand north and west to try to limit Washington's expansion. I don't think it's possible to really block Washington, however I don't think you want to just let him expand unchecked. Once Ragnar is dead the Nidaros site can be refounded whenever it can be afforded.


Regarding wonders, I'm a bit surprised that there isn't more interest in building Pyramids. A number of people are suggesting Oracle, in some cases to take Monarchy. Pyramids will provide the same benefit (well not the tech but the civic that the tech provides). With stone Pyramids isn't that much more expensive than Oracle without marble. Given the current date and the tech situation I think the chances of getting Oracle are pretty slim at this point, but Pyramids is still a possibility if it's the first build in the green city.

 

[stuttrboy]

The Mids are 450 hammers and the Oracle is 150, even at half off the mids are 1.5 times the hammers of the Oracle. While I have nothing against the mids we don't really need police state Rep or US and Hereditary Rule is easily researchable/tradeable early. pyramids with stone is nice but it will kill the Rex as will The Oracle for that matter, I don't think we should build either but just steal Washingtons techs instead. We beeline strategic techs and use spies and espionage to backfill with Washington while we REx out to 6-8 cities, spam cottages and win. Besides other wonders will pollute our GP pool and we want at least 2 spies for washington.

After Killing Ragnar of course. Nidaros is nice and juicy, I don't think we want to raze it, it will pay for itself pretty quickly with the fishes and a few cottages, or make it a GP farm though I think maybe there's a better spot for that. we don't want any of his other cities though, those should be razed unless they happen to be in an amazing spot.

 

[CivCorpse]

On the subject of razing Nidaros, someone pointed out that Raggy has 2 fish, they could be in the black area or they could be from his second city. As a wonder-o-holic, I advocate building the Pyramids. Especially if there are in fact sardines in Nidaros. I am confident atleast one of his two fish are there. With a number of farmable grasslands, one clam 1 or 2 fish plus the bovine tile that would be a nifty GP farm or GP fishery. It also appears to have a decent amount of production capability. For either unit production or for building the buildings a GP farm/fishery needs. If that unseen tile has marble connected to that road then it has good production and makes the GL cheaper. Nothing is tastier than the GL in the GP f/f. I say keep the city and use the settler you would produce to resettle for blocking Washington. The commerce from the 2/3 seafood tiles will help pay for the city maintenance. And a ziigadoo-dad makes the city pay for itself. OK, i am currently losing todays Monarch level game, so I must return to witness the glory of my opponents as they wipe me from the face of the planet.