Alliance? What alliance?

[ProphetMaster]

I am at turn 137 of my first attempt at Apollo level. My neighbors are ARC and KP. I had worked hard to get ahead of the Russian in science. Granted, I was behind the others by a couple levels of affinity, but I was COUNTING on my "alliance" with KP to help if ARC declared on me. They were about equal in military. KP was one level ahead of her in affinity, I believe. So, ARC declared on me, and as far as I can tell, KP just sat back and did ZERO to help. I don't think either of them crossed a border. I have been slugging it out with ARC in a stalemate for about 20 turns. Oh, and to add injury to insult, KP just made "peace" with ARC.

So, can somebody explain to me how this so-called "alliance" works? It is like "favors". That is, almost meaningless (seems to me). The diplomacy function in this damn game is terrible compared to CIV4 (where I came from).

 

[Gritf]

I do believe that AI players going to war due an ally been DoW actually try to engage in combat, the thing is the way they engage. Usually an AI evaluates their military might against itself, and also the military near the city in question.

If the numbers doesn't seem favorable they won't attack even during times of war. Also stalemates tend to make the AIs to offer peace treaties. Which sometimes that may favor you even then, because if one of the implicates is losing troops, they may offer resources in exchange for the amnesty, which tend to cripple their production for 30 turns.

But yes, a human player usually is of more help, or more douchebagness depending on their personal idea of fun.

Edit: I like to befriend aliens whenever I can (by claiming tiles with an alien nest and not destroying it or killing alliens). Besides they not attacking you anymore they also react aggresively to people attacking you, or at least it seemed to me during one of my games. They were a lot more useful that most of any alliances I've ever made.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Nothing wrong there. I do that all the time, accept an invitation for a double DoW and then just sit back and do nothing

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Stupid question - can you even form formal alliances in BE?

I've only ever had 'cooperation agreements' but never had an alliance where if I get attacked, my allies automaticaly DoW the offending nation.

And in my experience, the cooperation agreements are essentially useless. They only give a small modifier to how much the AI in question likes me but that's about it.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Cooperation agreements let you trade science and lump sum energy and increase the value of trade routes. Alliance is right on the trade screen.

 

[ProphetMaster]

Cooperation agreements let you trade science and lump sum energy and increase the value of trade routes. Alliance is right on the trade screen.

I have come to the tentative conclusion that making alliances may be even WORST than zero. In my current game, I also did an alliance with KP (figuring nothing to lose). Now she stupidly sent a colonist overseas and set up a city right next to the Russian empire. I figure it is just a matter of time before he DOWs on her and I get sucked into a war I don't want.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Well then you shouldn't do that. Get an alliance when YOU are forward settling or when YOU are about to start a war. A "what the heck, might as well" attitude isn't very strategic.

 

[ProphetMaster]

Well then you shouldn't do that. Get an alliance when YOU are forward settling or when YOU are about to start a war. A "what the heck, might as well" attitude isn't very strategic.

True. Have you ever gotten any real help in war from an alliance? Or is the whole thing just a joke -- like them returning "favors"?

 

[Patrick Pelikan]

True. Have you ever gotten any real help in war from an alliance?

I never took an alliance with an AI, I don't think it's worth it. I draged them into war against another AI to get them the warmonger penalty, which was really funny to see how the rest of the AIs turn on them. But military support no. They declare with you and if they are close enough to the common enemy and have the means, throw 3-4 rovers at the nearest enemy city, lose them and just do nothing

Or is the whole thing just a joke -- like them returning "favors"?

I only do the favour trade if I can't choose energy as alternative. Those trades give you a positive diplo modifier with them and can be useful for close neighbours. Of course some of the demands are plain stupid. Like "gain one favour for 72 beakers per turn". Yeah right. No! I mostly trade the favours instantly back for 3-4 energy per turn. In rare cases, favours were usful. Saw Brasilia sending a colonist at a place I wanted to settle, ask him to not settle near me, he refused "We settle land we please" and then got the opiton "No, really I must insist [spend 1 favour]". He agreed then what was actually quite cool.

 

[kaltorak]

So, can somebody explain to me how this so-called "alliance" works? It is like "favors". That is, almost meaningless (seems to me). The diplomacy function in this damn game is terrible compared to CIV4 (where I came from).

I feel you man. Diplomacy is in my opinion the biggest step back they took from civ4 to 5 and BE.
When civ5 released, I missed many things from civ4. But as time passed and patches happened, I finally enjoyed civ5 more than 4. Excluding diplomacy. Civ5 and BE diplomacy is just nonexistant.

Their mistake was thinking that making the AIs try to reason like humans would make the game better. Sure, if you could replicate a human playing it would be great. But you can't. AIs are just player wanabees since civ5, instead of civilization leader personalities like they were on civ4.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

True. Have you ever gotten any real help in war from an alliance? Or is the whole thing just a joke -- like them returning "favors"?

Yes, but I suspect they were ready for war when I asked. Most of the time they end up spending the whole war preparing for war and then end it before they get moving.

 

[tedeviatings]

Yes, but I suspect they were ready for war when I asked. Most of the time they end up spending the whole war preparing for war and then end it before they get moving.

On that note I generally regard favors as a waste of time but wanted to give them another shot since people reported they got the AI to declare war in trade for favors.
So I accepted bad trades for favors and then tried to use them when I needed to bribe an AI into war. It never worked though - even when trying to bribe the leader in score to attack the guy she hated and attacked 10 turns later anyways.
Now my sample size is pretty small but right now my hypothesis is that an either agrees to be bribed or not and this is independent of whether you have favors or not. Now when the AI agrees then favors might be used as an alternative method of payment.

Now since - as I said - I didn't do much testing, can anyone confirm or deny this? Has anyone ever made a AI DoW someone with favors when it couldn't be done without?

 

[ProphetMaster]

On that note I generally regard favors as a waste of time but wanted to give them another shot since people reported they got the AI to declare war in trade for favors.
So I accepted bad trades for favors and then tried to use them when I needed to bribe an AI into war. It never worked though - even when trying to bribe the leader in score to attack the guy she hated and attacked 10 turns later anyways.
Now my sample size is pretty small but right now my hypothesis is that an either agrees to be bribed or not and this is independent of whether you have favors or not. Now when the AI agrees then favors might be used as an alternative method of payment.

Now since - as I said - I didn't do much testing, can anyone confirm or deny this? Has anyone ever made a AI DoW someone with favors when it couldn't be done without?

I must say, as a long-time CIV4 player, the diplomacy in this game really sucks. I almost never feel the need to talk to any of them, and they only talk to me to beg favors or invite me to join a war. And, of course, once I hit affinity 5, they all tell me how much they love or hate me. I can almost never get anything close to a reasonable trade with them.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Now since - as I said - I didn't do much testing, can anyone confirm or deny this? Has anyone ever made a AI DoW someone with favors when it couldn't be done without?

Don't use the deals screen, use "shall we declare war on..." Someone refused and I had the option "I insist (-2 favors)" you might need a cooperation agreement.

 

[tedeviatings]

Good to know how it works, thanks for the info
That said I'm probably going back to 100% declining favor offers.

 

[ProphetMaster]

Nothing wrong there. I do that all the time, accept an invitation for a double DoW and then just sit back and do nothing

I had another one last night with the Australian dude. He was level-9 affinity and bordered Russian who had level-4. Russian declared on me, and my Australian "ally" did virtually NOTHING to help, although he had enough military to crush the Russian. Oh, and KP and ARC joined the war on the side of the Russian.

As an old CIV4 player (where an alliance actually means something), I wish they would either fix this in their software or just get rid of it. As it stands, alliances are just a sick joke IMO.

 

[Alkaid]

I think it's just really hit or miss with alliances and if the allies actually accomplish anything alongside you.

I've had those games where the AI I bribe to attack another AI gets nothing done too. But other games they'll steamroll their border or at least enter an epic deadlock, keeping the action between them and the hell away from me, as I usually hope for.

I actually had a really good game for alliances the other day, which really surprised me. I had ARC as my closest neighbor in the center of the continent I was on, with PAC, Franco-Iberia, and Polystralia bordering ARC at other sides. Thanks to luckly going the same affinity as Polystralia and France, I got alliances with them. PAC also randomly asked to be my ally. ARC tried to attack me and they all did a surprisingly good job of helping pressure her, draw units away from my end, and even taking a couple cities. Over the course of the game, especially with France, I had alliances and bribed-wars really helping me out and keeping any enemies out of my territory.

I won't try to say that kind of thing is the norm for the AI, but maybe I'm just lucky/TC's unlucky. I rarely see the AI twiddle its thumbs about attacking each other when I have an AI join me in something or I've bribed an AI to fight somebody. If they do barely fight it's usually either they're too far apart, have something/somebody blocking easy access to each other's territory, or they just plain don't have a big enough army.

Assuming they're in a decent location, they VERY rarely fail to at least be a distraction for my enemy, which is what I usually want them to be if nothing else.

 

[ProphetMaster]

I think it's just really hit or miss with alliances and if the allies actually accomplish anything alongside you.

I've had those games where the AI I bribe to attack another AI gets nothing done too. But other games they'll steamroll their border or at least enter an epic deadlock, keeping the action between them and the hell away from me, as I usually hope for.

I actually had a really good game for alliances the other day, which really surprised me. I had ARC as my closest neighbor in the center of the continent I was on, with PAC, Franco-Iberia, and Polystralia bordering ARC at other sides. Thanks to luckly going the same affinity as Polystralia and France, I got alliances with them. PAC also randomly asked to be my ally. ARC tried to attack me and they all did a surprisingly good job of helping pressure her, draw units away from my end, and even taking a couple cities. Over the course of the game, especially with France, I had alliances and bribed-wars really helping me out and keeping any enemies out of my territory.

I won't try to say that kind of thing is the norm for the AI, but maybe I'm just lucky/TC's unlucky. I rarely see the AI twiddle its thumbs about attacking each other when I have an AI join me in something or I've bribed an AI to fight somebody. If they do barely fight it's usually either they're too far apart, have something/somebody blocking easy access to each other's territory, or they just plain don't have a big enough army.

Assuming they're in a decent location, they VERY rarely fail to at least be a distraction for my enemy, which is what I usually want them to be if nothing else.

Really? I forgot to mention that my "ally" who contributed practically nothing to the war actually gave open borders to our common enemy. As the saying goes, "With friends like that, who needs enemies."

Another thing I found annoying in that game was that two other AIs later declared on me for no good reason, never tried to take a city from me, but refused peace offers to the end of the game. Does the BE game have "war werriness" negative effects like in CIV4, or do these endless "wars" have no effect on the game? At one point the South American guy asked for peace and I had forgotten we were at war!

 

[Alkaid]

Really? I forgot to mention that my "ally" who contributed practically nothing to the war actually gave open borders to our common enemy. As the saying goes, "With friends like that, who needs enemies."

Another thing I found annoying in that game was that two other AIs later declared on me for no good reason, never tried to take a city from me, but refused peace offers to the end of the game. Does the BE game have "war werriness" negative effects like in CIV4, or do these endless "wars" have no effect on the game? At one point the South American guy asked for peace and I had forgotten we were at war!

Gave open borders after they stopped being at war with the other AI? It might of been part of their peace deal.

I don't know anything about the mechanics of Civ4 but the "never ending war" when 2 AI's DOW you together is a known BE bug. One that I think was introduced with the first patch and then not fixed with the latest one.

Of all the current bugs it's one of the lamest ones.

 

[ProphetMaster]

Gave open borders after they stopped being at war with the other AI? It might of been part of their peace deal.

I don't know anything about the mechanics of Civ4 but the "never ending war" when 2 AI's DOW you together is a known BE bug. One that I think was introduced with the first patch and then not fixed with the latest one.

Of all the current bugs it's one of the lamest ones.

There is no rationality to the diplomacy. The Chinese chick "condemned" me on the turn that I hit Affinity level 12, but in the diplomacy screen she was listed as "friendly" in the turn before AND the turn after she comdemed me. Not kidding! They need to tear down all the diplomacy software and just use what they had for CIV4.