"'American Rambo' goes berserk" in Lahore, Pakistan

Formaldehyde

Both Fair And Balanced
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I'm surprised nobody has started a thread about this.

A US "consular employee", whose actual role still hasn't been officially divulged, shot and killed two Pakistanis on a motorcycle whom he claimed were armed and trying to rob him. Someone else in another consular vehicle responding to his aid apparently ran over and killed another individual on a motorcycle, and then fled the scene. He is still at large.

U.S. official faces murder charges in Pakistan

'Diplomatic staff usually enjoy a certain type of immunity, but I am not sure about murder,' police chief says

LAHORE, Pakistan — Pakistan will pursue murder charges against a U.S. consular employee suspected in the shooting deaths of two armed men possibly intent on robbing him, a prosecutor said Friday.

Rana Bakhtiar spoke after the American appeared in court where judges ordered him to remain in police custody for six days.

The case has sharpened anti-American sentiment in Pakistan.

A third Pakistani was killed in the incident Thursday in the bustling city of Lahore, allegedly after being hit by a U.S. vehicle rushing to the aid of the American.

Police officer Umar Saeed said Friday the American had told officers he had withdrawn money from an ATM shortly before the incident, raising the possibility the two men were following him.

Others Pakistani officers have said the men were likely robbers and both were carrying pistols.

"A staff member of the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore was involved in an incident yesterday that regrettably resulted in the loss of life," the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said in a statement Friday. "The U.S. Embassy is working with Pakistani authorities to determine the facts and work toward a resolution."

The issue of American diplomats or their security detail carrying weapons inside Pakistan was a hot-button subject last year among certain politicians and sections of the media purportedly worried about the country's sovereignty.

'American Rambo'

Many Pakistanis regard the United States with suspicion or outright enmity because of its presence in neighboring Afghanistan and regular missile attacks against militant targets in the northwest.

"'American Rambo' goes berserk in Lahore,'" read the headline in The Nation, a right-wing newspaper that frequently publishes unsourced anti-American conspiracy theories.


Western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of militant attack.

Lahore has seen frequent terrorist bombings and shootings over the last two years, though the city's small expatriate population has not been directly targeted.

The Express Tribune newspaper said in an editorial that it was reasonable for Western diplomats to travel armed, but noted that in America shooting in self-defense can result in a conviction, especially if it can be proved that the accused used excessive force.

Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen said the American was being questioned by the police and may be charged with both murder and illegally carrying a weapon, a Beretta pistol.

"Diplomatic staff usually enjoy a certain type of immunity, but I am not sure about murder," he said. "We will consult the Foreign Office and legal advisers in this regard."

Police officer Riasat Ali said one of the victim's brothers had registered a criminal case against the American, a necessary step for the police to begin an investigation.

Robbers on motorbikes pulling up alongside cars and holding them up is quite a common crime in Pakistani cities.

Americans and other foreigners have also been frequently targeted by Islamist militants.

In the northwestern city of Peshawar in 2008, gunmen shot and killed a U.S. aid worker as he drove to work. Suspected militants also opened fire on the vehicle of the top American diplomat in the city the same year, but she survived the attack.

And now, according to the Times of India, the US government is claiming he is entitled to diplomatic immunity:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-immunity-in-Pakistan/articleshow/7393703.cms

ISLAMABAD: The US on Sunday mounted a defence for an American facing a double murder charge for shooting two Pakistani men in Lahore, saying he was a member of the US mission's staff and entitled to diplomatic immunity.

A statement issued by the US embassy on Sunday evening said: "The US diplomat detained in Lahore is a member of the US embassy's technical and administrative staff, and therefore entitled to full criminal immunity and cannot be lawfully arrested or detained in accordance with the Vienna Convention".

The embassy noted that the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations provides diplomatic immunity to all diplomats around the world.

It said Article 37 of the Convention specifically extends "the same criminal immunity that diplomats have to members of the technical and administrative staff of an embassy".

Earlier in the day, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani declined to comment on the case of the US national arrested by Pakistani police for shooting dead two men in Lahore, saying the matter was in court and being investigated by authorities.

Gilani said he had already condemned the incident. "The Punjab government is conducting an inquiry into this matter and I will not comment till it is completed," he said.

Presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar told media that no pressure can force authorities to free the American.

The matter is in the court, which will make a decision, he said.

Pakistani authorities have already rejected a US demand to release an American who shot dead two youths in Lahore, saying the matter would be handled in court according to the country's laws.

Foreign office spokesman Abdul Basit told the media Sunday that the matter was already in court and Punjab Police were investigating Thursday's shooting incident in Lahore.

"It would not be appropriate to publicly talk on this issue," he said.

The American - identified in media reports as Raymond Davis - shot and killed two armed youths who he claimed were trying to rob him.

A third Pakistani national died when he was hit by a US consulate car rushing to the aid of the American.

This incident raises all sorts of interesting issues.

Should American consular employees be held accountable to the local laws regarding murder charges and other serious felonies, which in this particular case apparently do not allow someone to use deadly force even when robbed at gunpoint?

Should they be able to carry firearms, even when they are apparently not acting in any offical bodyguard capacity?

Should the person who allegedly ran over an innocent person turn himself into the local authorities? Is the US government helping him to elude prosecution?
 
Here is an interesting spin on the events. Asia One is claiming that another consulate vehicle first struck and killed a motorcyclist. Then "Rambo", who is ostensibly a Blackwater/Xe employee, shot and killed two "gentlemen" on motorcycles who tried to intercede when they both fled from the scene...

http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20110128-260941.html

LAHORE, Pakistan - An American diplomat gunned down two Pakistani young motorcyclists near Mozang Crossing, shortly after they intercepted him as he was fleeing after crushing another bike rider to death at Jail Road on Thursday afternoon, eyewitnesses said.

Even after killing three people, the Americans went on the rampage as the US Consulate vehicles also hit and injured over a dozen people who came in their way or tried to stop them when they were escaping from the crime scene.

The killer, identified as Raymond Davis, an undercover US spy who is working as technical advisor at the US Consulate General in Lahore, told the police that he shot dead the boys in 'self-defence' as they were robbers. However, police investigators and local residents said the boys were gentlemen and they had no criminal record.


The police have registered two separate FIRs, including one of murder case under Section 302 of the PPC, against the diplomat and are investigating.

The terrible incident sparked anti-American protests in different parts of the city while the religious parties have announced protests today after Friday prayers.

Sources revealed that the police handed over the so-called diplomat to the US Consulate covertly late on Thursday night. However, the city police chief claimed that Raymond Davis was in their custody. Replying to a query, he said no doubt the diplomats enjoyed some immunity, "but I think in case of killings they don't."

The police are also investigating as to why the American was carrying arms when he was travelling on the city roads without prior information and armed protection.

According the police sources, two vehicles of the US Consulate (white colour Honda VIT-1.8 LEC-5545 and a land cruiser Parado LZQ-6970) were moving towards Qartaba Chowk from Shadman Crossing when the over-speeding pink colour land cruiser hit a motorcycle at about 2:20pm. Davis was sitting in white colour car and he was following the land cruiser.

As a result, the motorcyclist, later identified as Ubaid-ur-Rahman, 25, a trader in Shah Alam Market, sustained multiple wounds and died on the spot. As the US diplomats tried to escape from the scene, local shopkeepers and passers-by started chasing him.

Two young motorcyclists, who witnessed the deadly accident, also started chasing the diplomat, intercepted his car and managed to stop it near Qartba Chowk.


"The boys were chasing the Americans on humanitarian ground as they (US officials) were fleeing from the crime scene after crushing a motorcyclist instead of shifting him to the hospital," Mahmood Khan, an eyewitness said.

Davis, from inside the car, opened indiscriminate fire with his Beretta pistol using hollow point bullets. An orphan youth Faizan Haider, 23, and his pillion riding friend, unidentified so far, sustained multiple bullet wounds and died on the spot.

Sources further revealed that another two American diplomats managed to flee and reached the consulate on the land cruiser.

"According to our knowledge, all the three Americans are undercover agents of Blackwater, a notorious American security firm, also known as Xe Services," a source said.


The police sources said Faizan, a resident of Ravi Road, was a thorough gentleman and was carrying a licensed pistol with him.

"His elder brother Kamran Haider was shot dead by his rivals a couple of months back. The killers are on interim bail these days. Therefore, Faizan used to carry pistol with him for self-protection. He was also pursuing the murder case of his brother in a local court," a senior police officer said, adding that the deceased and his other family members had no criminal record.

"This is true that Faizan Haider was carrying pistol with him but he did not fire even a single shot," police investigators said and added that they also recovered the pistol and bullets from the crime scene.

As the people gathered on the spot and tried to capture the killer, the drivers accelerated the cars and managed to flee from the spot. Later, the US vehicles got stuck in the traffic in Old Anarkali area, where DSP Safdar Raza Kazmi along with a heavy police contingent managed to stop the vehicle.


Davis took out his gun and pointed at the policemen, forcing them to leave the spot but to no avail, an eyewitness said, adding, the police managed to took them to the nearby police station, from where later they were shifted to the office of Capital City Police Officer (CCPO).

Sources revealed that neither the diplomat informed the local administration prior to his 'special assignment,' he was leaving for, nor he got police security.

Medical experts and investigators said that Faizan Haider sustained nine bullets while his friend was shot four times. They were rushed to the Services Hospital, where doctors pronounced them dead.

The police handed over the bodies to the morgue for autopsy.

"The killer after shooting the boys came out of his car and made video of the incident using his mobile camera. The boy was breathing his last when the killer was making video clips," an eyewitness said.

The police chief said that "He is an American national working as Technical advisor in US Consulate. He is in our custody and we are investigating." The police have also impounded the vehicle of the killer.

The family members of the deceased Ubaid-ur-Rehman refused to receive his dead body at the hospital. "We will not perform his last rites until the killer is hanged," Sajjad-ur-Rehman brother of the deceased told reporters outside the hospital.

Soon after the incident, dozens of people gathered on the crime scene, blocked the road and staged strong protest demonstration by setting the tyres on fire, disrupting the traffic flow for hours at the busy road during rush-hours.

The killer also told the police that a pedestrian was killed by a speeding car from the US consulate which came to his help.


US Consulate officials told police that the American fired his pistol in self defence. US embassy officials also confirmed that an American was involved. They also claimed that the men were pursuing the American in his car. The killer told the police that he pulled out his pistol in self-defence.

The US diplomat's car had several bullet holes in the front windscreen as the killer fired several shot from inside. Later he came out and opened more shots to ensure on-spot-death of the boys.
This version of the events would certainly explain why the local police think it was a murder instead of self-defense.
 
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. I don't see why anyone should be immune from prosecution if they break the law.
 
Why shouldn't Americans, especially diplomatic staff and apparently an agent be able to defend themselves from criminals and enemies abroad?
 
If he's found guilty of murder in a fair trial, then he should be punished. Immunity or not.
 
Why shouldn't Americans, especially diplomatic staff and apparently an agent be able to defend themselves from criminals and enemies abroad?
If that is what actually happened instead of just an excuse. Read the second post in this thread. If he was so innocent, why was he fleeing the police and even apparently pointed his weapon at them?
 
The killer, identified as Raymond Davis, an undercover US spy

The dude is a spy. You gotta do what you gotta do in the clandestine services. I can't see why our agents should be restrained by the law when acting abroad.
 
If that is what actually happened instead of just an excuse. Read the second post in this thread. If he was so innocent, why was he fleeing the police and even apparently pointed his weapon at them?

You mean this article?

Spoiler :
'American Rambo' goes berserk in Pakistan

LAHORE, Pakistan - An American diplomat gunned down two Pakistani young motorcyclists near Mozang Crossing, shortly after they intercepted him as he was fleeing after crushing another bike rider to death at Jail Road on Thursday afternoon, eyewitnesses said.

Even after killing three people, the Americans went on the rampage as the US Consulate vehicles also hit and injured over a dozen people who came in their way or tried to stop them when they were escaping from the crime scene.

The killer, identified as Raymond Davis, an undercover US spy who is working as technical advisor at the US Consulate General in Lahore, told the police that he shot dead the boys in 'self-defence' as they were robbers. However, police investigators and local residents said the boys were gentlemen and they had no criminal record.

The police have registered two separate FIRs, including one of murder case under Section 302 of the PPC, against the diplomat and are investigating.

The terrible incident sparked anti-American protests in different parts of the city while the religious parties have announced protests today after Friday prayers.

Sources revealed that the police handed over the so-called diplomat to the US Consulate covertly late on Thursday night. However, the city police chief claimed that Raymond Davis was in their custody. Replying to a query, he said no doubt the diplomats enjoyed some immunity, "but I think in case of killings they don't."

The police are also investigating as to why the American was carrying arms when he was travelling on the city roads without prior information and armed protection.

According the police sources, two vehicles of the US Consulate (white colour Honda VIT-1.8 LEC-5545 and a land cruiser Parado LZQ-6970) were moving towards Qartaba Chowk from Shadman Crossing when the over-speeding pink colour land cruiser hit a motorcycle at about 2:20pm. Davis was sitting in white colour car and he was following the land cruiser.

As a result, the motorcyclist, later identified as Ubaid-ur-Rahman, 25, a trader in Shah Alam Market, sustained multiple wounds and died on the spot. As the US diplomats tried to escape from the scene, local shopkeepers and passers-by started chasing him.

Two young motorcyclists, who witnessed the deadly accident, also started chasing the diplomat, intercepted his car and managed to stop it near Qartba Chowk.

"The boys were chasing the Americans on humanitarian ground as they (US officials) were fleeing from the crime scene after crushing a motorcyclist instead of shifting him to the hospital," Mahmood Khan, an eyewitness said.

Davis, from inside the car, opened indiscriminate fire with his Beretta pistol using hollow point bullets. An orphan youth Faizan Haider, 23, and his pillion riding friend, unidentified so far, sustained multiple bullet wounds and died on the spot.

Sources further revealed that another two American diplomats managed to flee and reached the consulate on the land cruiser.

"According to our knowledge, all the three Americans are undercover agents of Blackwater, a notorious American security firm, also known as Xe Services," a source said.

The police sources said Faizan, a resident of Ravi Road, was a thorough gentleman and was carrying a licensed pistol with him.

"His elder brother Kamran Haider was shot dead by his rivals a couple of months back. The killers are on interim bail these days. Therefore, Faizan used to carry pistol with him for self-protection. He was also pursuing the murder case of his brother in a local court," a senior police officer said, adding that the deceased and his other family members had no criminal record.

"This is true that Faizan Haider was carrying pistol with him but he did not fire even a single shot," police investigators said and added that they also recovered the pistol and bullets from the crime scene.

As the people gathered on the spot and tried to capture the killer, the drivers accelerated the cars and managed to flee from the spot. Later, the US vehicles got stuck in the traffic in Old Anarkali area, where DSP Safdar Raza Kazmi along with a heavy police contingent managed to stop the vehicle.

Davis took out his gun and pointed at the policemen, forcing them to leave the spot but to no avail, an eyewitness said, adding, the police managed to took them to the nearby police station, from where later they were shifted to the office of Capital City Police Officer (CCPO).

Sources revealed that neither the diplomat informed the local administration prior to his 'special assignment,' he was leaving for, nor he got police security.

Medical experts and investigators said that Faizan Haider sustained nine bullets while his friend was shot four times. They were rushed to the Services Hospital, where doctors pronounced them dead.

The police handed over the bodies to the morgue for autopsy.

"The killer after shooting the boys came out of his car and made video of the incident using his mobile camera. The boy was breathing his last when the killer was making video clips," an eyewitness said.

The police chief said that "He is an American national working as Technical advisor in US Consulate. He is in our custody and we are investigating." The police have also impounded the vehicle of the killer.

The family members of the deceased Ubaid-ur-Rehman refused to receive his dead body at the hospital. "We will not perform his last rites until the killer is hanged," Sajjad-ur-Rehman brother of the deceased told reporters outside the hospital.

Soon after the incident, dozens of people gathered on the crime scene, blocked the road and staged strong protest demonstration by setting the tyres on fire, disrupting the traffic flow for hours at the busy road during rush-hours.

The killer also told the police that a pedestrian was killed by a speeding car from the US consulate which came to his help.

US Consulate officials told police that the American fired his pistol in self defence. US embassy officials also confirmed that an American was involved. They also claimed that the men were pursuing the American in his car. The killer told the police that he pulled out his pistol in self-defence.

The US diplomat's car had several bullet holes in the front windscreen as the killer fired several shot from inside. Later he came out and opened more shots to ensure on-spot-death of the boys.

-- The Nation/Asia News Network
From the MSNBC article in your first post:

"'American Rambo' goes berserk in Lahore,'" read the headline in The Nation, a right-wing newspaper that frequently publishes unsourced anti-American conspiracy theories.

I don't think the article in post #2 is going to be very reliable...
 
Only that's obviously not the same article. if you watch the MSNBC video from the first link, that will be perfectly clear.
 
Only that's obviously not the same article. if you watch the MSNBC video from the first link, that will be perfectly clear.

Oh. It just has the exact same title and credited to exact same nutty newspaper as was mentioned in the MSNBC piece but it's a different article? Gee what a cowinceedence.

And what kind of objective writing is that anyway? I mean you can tell it's garbage just by the way it's written. No need to have MSNBC tell me that it is worthless.
 
If the facts show they are right instead of this individual, he was indeed a "Rambo". That isn't "garbage" in and of itself given the possible circumstances.

And why are you trying so hard to attack the credibility of the source instead of actually discussing the issues? Asia One is owned by a Singapore company and has apparently won a number of awards:

http://www.asiaone.com/A1Home/A1Home.html
 
The dude is a spy. You gotta do what you gotta do in the clandestine services. I can't see why our agents should be restrained by the law when acting abroad.

Because you then invite everyone else's spies to do whatever they like over here!
 
Because you then invite everyone else's spies to do whatever they like over here!

And if they do we take them down. I simply can't understand why we should expect the clandestine services to abide by the law of the country they're in.
 
And if they do we take them down. I simply can't understand why we should expect the clandestine services to abide by the law of the country they're in.
So it's perfectly acceptable for "clandestine services" to murder innocent people?

Or are you just saying that it shouldn't suprise anybody when innocent people die wherever the CIA or Blackwater/Xe are operating?
 
An the ones that get caught, who cares? They are wastes. We don't want them back.
 
wasnt Rambo the victim of police brutality?

he certainly didn't kill the innocent, therefore I can only conclude the Pakistanis were robbers
 
I really don't like the concept of diplomatic immunity. However I am not going to jump the gun here and say what he did was wrong. It doesn't sound like its sorted out yet. I sure as hell wouldn't wait for armed men following me to fire the first shot.

If that is what happened I might of responded as such also.
 
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