Anybody else finding the game takes ages after BNW?

[blackcatatonic]

(Just to clarify: this isn't a performance/computer issue; I'm talking about how long it takes to win the game via Science or Culture)

At first I thought it was just me being inexperienced with BNW, and as I've probably played less than 10 games since the expansion came out there's likely an element of that. But I'm still not sure the game should be taking quite as long to complete as it does.

In G&K, on a Large Continents/Pangaea King map (Normal speed), I could comfortably win by turn 300 or not long after without trying too hard - not really a good thing, and BNW certainly brought a new element of challenge. But I am finding I am teching a lot slower than usual - in fact, the only time I've won before turn 400 was a Sacred Sites/Desert Folklore Byzantium cheese game that netted me a T191 culture victory. Every other time I've tried Culture I just cannot seem to do it before the mid 400s.

I am struggling to see why this is. I'm sure the new city Science penalty must be having some effect, but in my latest games I've been staying tall to combat that and still not progressing any faster and I've worked out that I am just not getting the techs fast enough. I can't believe that this is how the game is supposed to be played as I am usually bored out of my skull by the time I get to 1 or 2 AIs left, clicking End Turn and faith-buying Musicians until I finally achieve Influential status with them. I just can't get my tourism anything like high enough before Hotels and Airports and it's usually late 300s by the time I get there. This even happens when I win the International Games and World's Fair and build all of the GW wonders, finish Aesthetics, and so on and so forth. What is going so badly wrong? Is it:

- poor policy choices? Usually for CVs I use Tradition and Piety, but perhaps Piety is a bad idea since it's only really worth it for the Reformation beliefs? I managed to get Jesuit Education in my current Brazil game but it made little difference and frankly I think the damage is usually done by the time I get to Rationalism
- do techs genuinely cost a lot more than they used to? I'm sure this is partly true as even with a science rate in the 900-1000 region it takes a long time to push through the Atomic and Information trees
- harder to get cash = slower expansion = slower science?
- not enough war? I've seen on here before that killing strong culture Civs is important for faster CVs, but I don't particularly enjoy going to war as the friendly AIs hate you for it and frankly I resent having to go to war to win a 'culture' victory

In fairness, I haven't played a 'proper' Science Game yet, so I suppose I should try that. But the one SV that I did win was, again, post-400 and I don't feel I teched terribly in that game. Moreover, I am convinced that CVs shouldn't take as long as they do, and they seem - to me at least - to be wedded to tech rate in that without Sacred Sites city spam your tourism will barely make a dent in the AI's culture until you get to the late game.

So, what's going wrong for me? Or is this something everyone else is finding as well? Is slow tech rate just a thing now, or are there ways around it?

 

[njmfff]

Well from what I could observe, some late techs are more expensive then they were in GnKs.

I always build NC\Library\University\other ASAP and fill them with specialists, even if it means rush buying them (especially if there's jungle around), then take Rationalism when it's possible, and get first four policies from there. Good tiles for food\farm, rest (like plains) TP to get that extra science from TP. If possible, place one or two of your cities next to a mountain\river (Observatory and HP)

Drop a few GS, bulb rest to quickly advance to next eras (or grab important techs, like Industrialization, to quickly find coil and grab Ideology). I found that Freedom also works well for Science victory (or at least, to boost science) since you can have lot more specialist in each city (due to halved food\unhappiness consume) which works rather well with Rationalism tree. If you have friends, grab Porcelain Tower and sing as many RA as you can (it's possible to grab it with GE, especially since many AIs don't take Rationalism. Arabia seems to be only AI that is consistent in RTL and Science Funding choices)

as for Tall vs Wide empires... dunno, sure, you get extra cost on Wide empires, but if you place cities in right location, they can grow up to 15-20 pop, and they can still produce lot of science. Try playing with Rome, who builds infrastructure incredibly fast, and you'll see what I am talking about.

 

[Browd]

On your tech pace question:

I'm sure the new city Science penalty must be having some effect, but in my latest games I've been staying tall to combat that and still not progressing any faster and I've worked out that I am just not getting the techs fast enough. I can't believe that this is how the game is supposed to be played as I am usually bored out of my skull by the time I get to 1 or 2 AIs left, ...

...

- do techs genuinely cost a lot more than they used to? I'm sure this is partly true as even with a science rate in the 900-1000 region it takes a long time to push through the Atomic and Information trees

I may be misunderstanding you, but the references to "staying tall" and "1 or 2 AIs left" has me wondering whether you, after founding only a few cities that you are growing tall, are using the warmonger path to CV. If so, unless you are razing and selling every city you conquer, you are feeling the effects of the new 5% per city science penalty. Unlike culture costs, the 5% applies to puppets, not just annexed cities.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Science:
In BNW you can send food caravans/cargo-ships to bolster growth which the AI does. This will mean a greater science boost(for those AI's who care about science). I've found if you don't send food caravans you'll lag behind in tech as your cities will be too small.
The international Space Station comes too late to be a must have for a science victory but once you get it all you need to do is set each city to focus on science and you'll still be producing(roughly) the same hammers in each city as if you had focused on production. If you go Freedom and build the Statue of Liberty is some cases focusing on science produces more hammers than if you focus on production.

Culture:
Culture wonders(filling them with theming art/writing/music/artifacts) is the key and filling your museums with theming artifacts. This requires you to get to Archeology first(so you can spam other civs with your archaeologists). The Louvre, Eiffel Tower, and Broadway is prolly a must for and culture victory, The Great Firewall although not imperative is useful if you don't want to be spending Great Musicians on concert tours on the cov that does build it.
Winning the World Fair and International games should be on your to do list.

 

[blackcatatonic]

On your tech pace question:



I may be misunderstanding you, but the references to "staying tall" and "1 or 2 AIs left" has me wondering whether you, after founding only a few cities that you are growing tall, are using the warmonger path to CV. If so, unless you are razing and selling every city you conquer, you are feeling the effects of the new 5% per city science penalty. Unlike culture costs, the 5% applies to puppets, not just annexed cities.

Nope. As I say later in my post, I avoid warmongering wherever possible as I resent having to go down that path to win a culture victory. "1 or 2 AIs" left meant "1 or 2 AIs left who I'm not Influential with". Badly worded, I agree.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Science:
In BNW you can send food caravans/cargo-ships to bolster growth which the AI does. This will mean a greater science boost(for those AI's who care about science). I've found if you don't send food caravans you'll lag behind in tech as your cities will be too small.
The international Space Station comes too late to be a must have for a science victory but once you get it all you need to do is set each city to focus on science and you'll still be producing(roughly) the same hammers in each city as if you had focused on production. If you go Freedom and build the Statue of Liberty is some cases focusing on science produces more hammers than if you focus on production.

Good point. To be honest I find it hard not to be tempted into Wonder-spamming early game which is probably where I'm going wrong as I'm not building the NC, granaries, Caravans instead. I shall lay off the early Wonders next game and see if that helps...

Culture:
Culture wonders(filling them with theming art/writing/music/artifacts) is the key and filling your museums with theming artifacts. This requires you to get to Archeology first(so you can spam other civs with your archaeologists). The Louvre, Eiffel Tower, and Broadway is prolly a must for and culture victory, The Great Firewall although not imperative is useful if you don't want to be spending Great Musicians on concert tours on the cov that does build it.
Winning the World Fair and International games should be on your to do list.

Yep, already doing all of that. Still not winning before turn 400. I think it's purely down to just not getting the techs fast enough.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Well from what I could observe, some late techs are more expensive then they were in GnKs.

I always build NC\Library\University\other ASAP and fill them with specialists, even if it means rush buying them (especially if there's jungle around), then take Rationalism when it's possible, and get first four policies from there. Good tiles for food\farm, rest (like plains) TP to get that extra science from TP. If possible, place one or two of your cities next to a mountain\river (Observatory and HP)

Drop a few GS, bulb rest to quickly advance to next eras (or grab important techs, like Industrialization, to quickly find coil and grab Ideology). I found that Freedom also works well for Science victory (or at least, to boost science) since you can have lot more specialist in each city (due to halved food\unhappiness consume) which works rather well with Rationalism tree. If you have friends, grab Porcelain Tower and sing as many RA as you can (it's possible to grab it with GE, especially since many AIs don't take Rationalism. Arabia seems to be only AI that is consistent in RTL and Science Funding choices)

as for Tall vs Wide empires... dunno, sure, you get extra cost on Wide empires, but if you place cities in right location, they can grow up to 15-20 pop, and they can still produce lot of science. Try playing with Rome, who builds infrastructure incredibly fast, and you'll see what I am talking about.

Solid advice. I think I am just not getting Science buildings up fast enough. I usually go for GL in my capital (GW slot, plus I don't need to bother with a Library) but inevitably it's a while before I get my first few cities up.

Is religion not something people bother with as much now? Because very often I find that if I don't get Stonehenge and/or open Piety, I will be hard pressed to get a religion with decent beliefs. However, I suspect that this reliance may be costing me in terms of getting cities up faster. Piety as a tree really bugs me - it's really all about the Reformation belief but if you open it you slow yourself down AND you'll probably not get first pick of the Reformation beliefs anyway...

 

[DarthSheldonPhD]

I think games just take longer now, and mostly because the changes in the economics system lead to a stunted start. A slow start in a game of exponential growth makes a huge difference.

Used to be that you can start working on your economy from turn 1 on all games with a riverside capital, as they grew they added gold along the way with the majority of tiles, or just being coastal. And trading redundant resources for lump sum 240, just shy of half a settler or one-and-a-fifth archers, led to quickly establishing an empire and easily creating an early rush force.

My standards used to be domination = turn 200 or prior, diplomatic = turn 240 or prior, space = turn 285 or prior, and culture = turn 299 or prior. Anything else I considered to be a loss, and in 70 G&K games, equally divided among the 4 victory conditions (no time victory) the average victory was about turn 220 and I've never needed to hit turn 300. In 12 games of BNW, my average victory is around turn 265, I've only beaten turn 200 once (Mongol dom on donut map), and have had to exceed turn 300 just once but by quite a few turns (Enrico diplo on 327, Venice is fun but can he win a game by 250, or even 300?)

 

[joshua43214]

Try building settlers instead of the GL and get the NC up by T95 and you will see a marked improvement in your game. There is a nice window while researching the early lux techs to put out 2-3 settlers as you head up to phylo, then you can just make a few archers for defense while phylo finishes.

The GL has too high an opportunity cost in terms of expansion and infrastructure. You can get 3 setters and a building up in the same time it takes to build. If you must build the GL, just stick to one city and expand late - but you will be playing catch up for many turns.

A very solid opener that works on almost all maps is scout, scout, shrine/granary, archers til 4 or 5 pop, 2 - 3 settlers, archers/granary until phylo is done, then oracle while the libraries finish in the expos. Alternately you can go scout, monument, scout, shrine/granary, and back to the first BO - this is what I have been doing in my post-patch tradition games. Expo BO are granary, library in the first two, then library, granary in the last.

Make sure you stay focused on growing your population and not working production tiles early, send food to the cap.

 

[holywar]

I recently won my first cultural victory in BNW in the year 1890. I was using France and built the Pyramids, Stonehenge, Oxford U, Sistine Chapel, Uffizi, Lourve, and Broadway in Paris. The doubled theming bonus was massive. I could never win a cultural victory in G&K before the mid-1900s. I probably could have done it sooner but had a tough time getting all the great works of the right type to get the theming bonuses. Also, I followed a different religion than everyone else until the very end. (My religion turned out to be a hindrance, but I could not abandon my faith.)

The only two civs that did not easily succumb to my cultural dominance were Germany and the Netherlands. I finished them off with Great Musicians. I think the key to winning a quick cultural victory is how you use your great musicians. Once you get a decently high tourism output, start performing concerts in the civs that you are least influential with (10x tourism) rather than creating great works. You get a lot more bang for your tourism buck this way. Of course, you will not have a high enough tourism to make it worth it until later in the game (probably after you get to hotels) so you will want to create several great works of music beforehand.

In my case, I won in less than 10 turns after researching hotels, so I think I was far ahead of the curve. Paris was cranking out some massive tourism. I think the game is set up so that you should research radar (airports) before winning culture. But with France and Brazil you can win before that. Overall, I feel cultural victory is easier and quicker in BNW than G&K, as long as you get the right wonders and are planning for it all the way through.

 

[bbbt]

In my case, I won in less than 10 turns after researching hotels, so I think I was far ahead of the curve. Paris was cranking out some massive tourism. I think the game is set up so that you should research radar (airports) before winning culture. But with France and Brazil you can win before that. Overall, I feel cultural victory is easier and quicker in BNW than G&K, as long as you get the right wonders and are planning for it all the way through.

Yeah, I agree that if you beeline and grab the right wonders, you're generally solid. Especially on lower difficulties (Emperor or below), I've won simply after hotels, without playing either France or Brazil. They give such an insane boost to tourism. If you can get cultural heritage passed in world congress (assuming you have a majority of wonders overall), that, combined with hotels can add another big chunk of tourism.

On higher levels (Immortal or deity), it usually involves me getting the national tourist center and the internet, and then some musician bombing.

As to the OPs comment about sacred sites - I don't actually find it so useful unless playing pretty wide. In general I find it more useful to spend the culture in the aesthetics tree rather than piety when I'm going for the cultural win.

 

[blackcatatonic]

I do fill out Aesthetics, but I tend to open Piety as well for the Ref beliefs (not necessarily Sacred Sites) and because I find it hard to get a decent religion without it.

 

[GhostSalsa]

Are you keeping open borders and trade routes to those two holdout Civs? I recently had a heavily delayed culture win on Emperor, using the new Aesthetics tree - Rome closing his borders and being embargoed made him take 40 turns more than the other civ with a same-sized purple bar. Obviously those bonuses are essential.

But I still doubt an early finish to Aesthetics is the best approach. Rationalism is still the priority as soon as you can open it. Radio radio radio.

Along with radio one of the keys to quicker culture or diplo victory, obviously, is the World Fair slingshot. Proposing (prioritize Astronomy) World Fair and winning (grab Chemistry for mines) World Fair are a must. The double-culture typically lets you polish off Rationalism as you home in on Radio, use the free tech to open Radio - snatch Freedom or Order and turn on their GP bonuses. The 20% culture is still going and should give you enough push to their respective 3rd-tier Tourism policies (Order's only good if you are happier than everyone, obviously).

This exploits the sweet spot for policy costs in the industrial era, where policy costs are low because of the mid-game culture slump and culture generation is suddenly high. You would have been unlocking every 10 turns - a 30-turn at 200% culture means unlocking every 5 turns. Plus the early-adopter bonus that's 8 policies. 2 or so policies to finish Rationalism and the other 6 for the 3rd-level tourism boost.

I wouldn't go for Piety if you're trying to reduce win times.

 

[Barghaest]

Actually think it's intentional that Science, Culture and Diplomatic victories are more difficult to achieve. CV is easier to defend against... if you keep an eye on other civs influence over you, you can take steps to counter with GWs or boosting culture output via other means - CS, buildings, etc. And Wide empires are a little more penalized in the Science game to avoid serious runaway games. I have no complaints over the changes, myself. Think it adds more to the game (then again never did care for a game that lasted less than 500 turns...).

 

[njmfff]

Solid advice. I think I am just not getting Science buildings up fast enough. I usually go for GL in my capital (GW slot, plus I don't need to bother with a Library) but inevitably it's a while before I get my first few cities up.

Is religion not something people bother with as much now? Because very often I find that if I don't get Stonehenge and/or open Piety, I will be hard pressed to get a religion with decent beliefs. However, I suspect that this reliance may be costing me in terms of getting cities up faster. Piety as a tree really bugs me - it's really all about the Reformation belief but if you open it you slow yourself down AND you'll probably not get first pick of the Reformation beliefs anyway...

Hmm, what difficulty you're playing? Since both GL and Stonehenge are gone quickly in higher difficulties, so most of us tend to ignore them and focus on other things. Try not going for wonders, unless some you really need or can benefit much (like Petra on desert start). "Wonder addict attribute" is usually the one step that bugs so many players who can't make transition to higher difficulties, since they waste too much time building wonders that are in most cases gonna be build by AI, so they don't build good infrastructure\economy\expand when needed.

If you really want some wonder, save up GE then rush construction. (alto, this requires some planing ahead of the time)

as for pantheon, always try to pick up something that gives you more faith (like +1 faith from desert, faith from gold\silver, gems\pearls...), so you can quickly get GP to find religion. For founder\fallower also try to pick up either more faith or something useful (mosques are terrific, if they aren't gone, grab them ASAP. More faith, more culture + happiness)

 

[blackcatatonic]

Are you keeping open borders and trade routes to those two holdout Civs? I recently had a heavily delayed culture win on Emperor, using the new Aesthetics tree - Rome closing his borders and being embargoed made him take 40 turns more than the other civ with a same-sized purple bar. Obviously those bonuses are essential.

Usually, yes, but I often find that an AI that even mildly dislikes me will not give me Open Borders. I don't mean will ask for all of my stuff, just won't let me have them at all. Trade Routes help but obviously for the ones that are really far away, I have to wait until quite late on to get them set up.

But I still doubt an early finish to Aesthetics is the best approach. Rationalism is still the priority as soon as you can open it. Radio radio radio.

Along with radio one of the keys to quicker culture or diplo victory, obviously, is the World Fair slingshot. Proposing (prioritize Astronomy) World Fair and winning (grab Chemistry for mines) World Fair are a must. The double-culture typically lets you polish off Rationalism as you home in on Radio, use the free tech to open Radio - snatch Freedom or Order and turn on their GP bonuses. The 20% culture is still going and should give you enough push to their respective 3rd-tier Tourism policies (Order's only good if you are happier than everyone, obviously).

This exploits the sweet spot for policy costs in the industrial era, where policy costs are low because of the mid-game culture slump and culture generation is suddenly high. You would have been unlocking every 10 turns - a 30-turn at 200% culture means unlocking every 5 turns. Plus the early-adopter bonus that's 8 policies. 2 or so policies to finish Rationalism and the other 6 for the 3rd-level tourism boost.

I wouldn't go for Piety if you're trying to reduce win times.

I usually manage to get the World's Fair but Ramesses put paid to that in my current game. Poured everything into it and still couldn't beat him Unsurprisingly he's the last guy left culturally. I've got it down to about 15 turns to win now but it's going to be about T450(!) which is shocking - especially considering I'm Brazil, playing on Amazon Plus, with Sacred Path... I know, I know, how did I manage to mess that up? Not enough production and poor policy choice *cough* Piety *cough* I expect...

 

[blackcatatonic]

Hmm, what difficulty you're playing? Since both GL and Stonehenge are gone quickly in higher difficulties, so most of us tend to ignore them and focus on other things. Try not going for wonders, unless some you really need or can benefit much (like Petra on desert start). "Wonder addict attribute" is usually the one step that bugs so many players who can't make transition to higher difficulties, since they waste too much time building wonders that are in most cases gonna be build by AI, so they don't build good infrastructure\economy\expand when needed.

If you really want some wonder, save up GE then rush construction. (alto, this requires some planing ahead of the time)

as for pantheon, always try to pick up something that gives you more faith (like +1 faith from desert, faith from gold\silver, gems\pearls...), so you can quickly get GP to find religion. For founder\fallower also try to pick up either more faith or something useful (mosques are terrific, if they aren't gone, grab them ASAP. More faith, more culture + happiness)

King. Not sure if that counts as a higher difficulty or not! I was happily winning Emperor in G&K but BNW has put paid to that. In part it's because I'm a greedy little Wonder spammer and I can't get away with that on Emperor - although you are probably right that I can't really do it on King either

In my current game I went for Sacred Path (no brainer on Amazon Plus as Brazil) but I try to get Desert Folklore if I get the right start for it. I picked Cathedrals for the culture slots and Divine Inspiration for the faith generation. I've struggled with happiness pretty much all game - by the Atomic Era I was comfortably in double figures and then two ginormous cities flipped to me, which didn't do my happiness many favours!

 

[phillipwyllie]

...I shall lay off the early Wonders next game and see if that helps.....

Early wonder whore by all means, that will give your civ a solid foundation. I personally go for Great Library, Stonehenge, Pyramids, Oracle, National College, and Great Wall. I then beeline Education and hopefully I can get Angkor Wat, then I research Acoustics for the Sistine Chapel. Trade is always internal unless I'm loosing gold(never build units), unless I'm next to Shaka or some other warmonger then all this is up the Swanee.....

Growth is the key to almost everything. Now civ being civ things might not work out that way.....

 

[Silverdawn]

Usually, yes, but I often find that an AI that even mildly dislikes me will not give me Open Borders. I don't mean will ask for all of my stuff, just won't let me have them at all. Trade Routes help but obviously for the ones that are really far away, I have to wait until quite late on to get them set up.

If you have money, you can pay to get Open Borders one way. Normally, 1-2 gpt if they like you, higher if they don't.

 

[blackcatatonic]

If you have money, you can pay to get Open Borders one way. Normally, 1-2 gpt if they like you, higher if they don't.

But having my borders open to them doesn't help, does it? It only helps their tourism rate - or am I wrong about that?

I often find that if the AI dislikes me, they will happily pay for my open borders, but no amount of money or resources will get them to open their borders to me.