Anyone tried a medieval amphibious cap rush?

[pi-r8]

This is a speculative idea I had, and I was wondering if anyone had tried it or had ideas to make it work.

The basic idea is to beeline/bulb astronomy, and take advantage of amphibious sneak attack + a good UU + capitulation mechanics to quickly cap AIs before they have time to respond. Ideally, you could cap them with a lot of their army still intact, which could then be used to fight other AIs for you. I'll probably run vassalage so my units can start with two promos. Bulbing theology to get theology might also be worthwhile, since it would let you gain a 3rd promo after one battle.

The obvious choice of course is the Vikings, with their free amphibious promotion and faster ships. Unfortunately, even CR3 berzerkers will struggle against the more strongly defended cities, since you can't use seige amphibiously.

Berserkers aren't the only choice though. Samurai, Cho-Ko-Nu, and Oromo Warriors might work for this also. They all get multiple extra first strikes, which usually doesn't do much when units are at full strength but can do a lot when one has lost some HP- like after being hit by siege collateral. So I was thinking that with any of these units you could land, weaken them with siege (don't bother bombarding the defenses that would take too long) and then clean up at good odds while also earning tons of XP. CKNs can even do collateral when attacking amphibiously! And of course you can use spies to revolt any particularly tough cities, but you shouldn't have to do that too often if you bring enough siege and promote down the drill line.

I think you really wouldn't need much research power with this strategy. Just keep slaving out more units, and use the vassal bonus and their resources to keep you cities happy. Eventually you'd get frigates for bombardment, and grenadiers to crush rifles, but I think you could fight very effectively for a long time with just medieval tech (plus astronomy) if you do it right.

 

[lymond]

Try it with Portugal or Dutch for a real sneak attack. Portugal a bit earlier.

 

[elmurcis]

Dutch are the best - ship that can win galleon (if they manage to get there), can have 4 units on board and.... can be inside enemy borders (next to target city) when attack...
I usually build some 6-7 ships full with military (crosbow+mace + trebs) before I get Astro and than just upgrade galleys and I go out to find some sweet city to attack... if i'm really greedy than I even might attack directly from ship.. sometimes it is possible to find enemy capital with just 2-3 longs and.. many many ships inside it.. if city is atleast size 10, than I will be able to whip my military back (same turn whipping 10->8-6->4->2 will give me treb, mace, crosbow and longbow in 4 turns and city will not shrink at all yes, i get whip penalty, but.. its worth the time I get from rebuilding military fast )
But thats Archipelago map where this is brilliant strategy (small landmass and you will get most 5-6 more cities to fight against.. here water units rule the world)

 

[pi-r8]

Must be hard to kill longbows with just regular units attacking amphibiously out of carracks/east indiamen, no?

 

[Fippy]

You gain only 1 turn by naval attack compared with landing, so not sure that's worth using no siege.
Your chances of capitulating AIs also are much lower if you fight with sub-optimal odds, and lose units.

 

[Seraiel]

I've done some amphibious renaissance attacks, like with Cuirrassiers and similar. In general, it costs a lot of Hammers for Ships, units that are not needed on most maps, but the AI has no chance to defend at all, because their range is so long, that they can attack on T1.

The really good amphibious wars usually happen once transports and Marines are available, as Marines are actually really strong, Transports from Docks + Theocracy / Vassalage have a long movement range, and Destroyers can bombard high amounts of cultural.

If you like, have a look at Replay #4 (Link in Signature) , I fought one of the most endgame wars every in that game, think I had some hundreds of units and conquered about 30 cities on T0 of the final war, most of them with a mixture of Marines, Destroyers, Transports, Subs, Battleships and Carriers. The reason for this ultimate war was, that I played a highscore game, and wanted to shoot as far as possible over the domination limit to score extra points. Showed it wasn't worth it, but was great fun.

 

[pi-r8]

You gain only 1 turn by naval attack compared with landing, so not sure that's worth using no siege.
Your chances of capitulating AIs also are much lower if you fight with sub-optimal odds, and lose units.

True, only one turn, but that one turn is huge. It gives the AI a chance to pull defenders into their cities, whip another defender, move their ships out to attack yours, and maybe attack your stack with knights. Still, it might be the only way to make this work in medieval times. For this to work, I really need the AI to caitulate quickly.

 

[pi-r8]

I've done some amphibious renaissance attacks, like with Cuirrassiers and similar. In general, it costs a lot of Hammers for Ships, units that are not needed on most maps, but the AI has no chance to defend at all, because their range is so long, that they can attack on T1.

The really good amphibious wars usually happen once transports and Marines are available, as Marines are actually really strong, Transports from Docks + Theocracy / Vassalage have a long movement range, and Destroyers can bombard high amounts of cultural.

Hmm yeah cuirs could work too. They've got many advantages for this: higher base strength, natural first strike immunity, chance to withdraw, and stables. You could use rax + stable + vassalage + theo + charismatic to make amphibious mounted out of the box, or fight an earlier war with HAs to get experience and GGs. Playing as Dutch would save on ship costs. Or china could get amphibious collateral.

Big problem with cuirs of course is they're so much farther up the tech tree. Are you able to get much usage out of them and galleons before the AIs get rifles? At least with other macemen/muskets you've got the option to upgrade to grenadiers to take down rifles.

I do know how powerful marines can be in the late game, that's why I was wondering if there's any way to get that kind of power earlier

 

[pi-r8]

Heh I just realized that what I'm basically describing is attacko's amphibious elephants

 

[Robert FIN]

In TMIT's Ragnar LP, he did many amphibious strikes to AI! Just not medieval, closer to industrial or modern era, but the LP was really entertaining!!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Espionage and Support City Revolt should make Galleon transported Berserkers effective with City Raider promotions versus Longbowmen defenders. Should work well with non-hill cities; there may be too many units lost versus hill cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[pi-r8]

Espionage and Support City Revolt should make Galleon transported Berserkers effective with City Raider promotions versus Longbowmen defenders. Should work well with non-hill cities; there may be too many units lost versus hill cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

Yeah the more I think about this I think it would only work with a lot of espionage spending to drop basically all their citiy defences. Hill longbows can be dealt with, just barely, by cr3 berzerkers.

 

[Seraiel]

Hmm yeah cuirs could work too. They've got many advantages for this: higher base strength, natural first strike immunity, chance to withdraw, and stables. You could use rax + stable + vassalage + theo + charismatic to make amphibious mounted out of the box, or fight an earlier war with HAs to get experience and GGs. Playing as Dutch would save on ship costs. Or china could get amphibious collateral.

Big problem with cuirs of course is they're so much farther up the tech tree. Are you able to get much usage out of them and galleons before the AIs get rifles? At least with other macemen/muskets you've got the option to upgrade to grenadiers to take down rifles.

I do know how powerful marines can be in the late game, that's why I was wondering if there's any way to get that kind of power earlier

Cuirrassiers aren't really that hard to get, and their advantage lasts for a long time. I don't know about your games, but in 60-70% of my games, I don't have to tech Nationalism because the AI does it for me, making Cuirrs just 1 tech away, and yes, their time-window is quite large because AI almost never techs them, and Rifles are far away from Cuirrs. Good thing about Cuirrs is, that they're so much superior to the normal units of all previous times, that they can even do without amphibious.

I understand the way you're thinking of really well though. Grens lie on the way towards Chemistry, which is extremely helpful with those approaches because Frigates are great protection and good on bombarding culture. However, Grens are miles away from Cuirrs and even more miles away from Beserkers, and Berserkers cannot even be upgraded into Grens.

What might make you think, though, is that Airships actually aren't that far away from Astro, because both techs can be bulbed with GSs, and Airships + Beserkers = win.

Sounds funny, but in Replay #6, I used Airships + Elephants because I had possibility to get MT due to needing Lib for Medicine. I remember it working quite well, even without amphibious promotion, though tbh, I'm quite sure, that Cuirrs + Galleons are still the fastest and strongest way, and that basically all of this isn't really worth it, if you don't have spare ships that usually server other purposes (like on Big & Small i. e. ) . Doing this on a Pangaea is a straight waste of Resources and tech-power.

 

[georgjorge]

in 60-70% of my games, I don't have to tech Nationalism because the AI does it for me.

I don't want to derail this thread much, but can you give some pointers on how to achieve this? I've tried having the AI tech Nationalism for me and trade for it a number of times (giving them Philosophy early), but usually end up having to self-research due to a) them not researching it b) them not trading it because it's a monopoly tech or because they are building the Taj themselves.

 

[Fippy]

I don't want to derail this thread much, but can you give some pointers on how to achieve this? I've tried having the AI tech Nationalism for me and trade for it a number of times (giving them Philosophy early), but usually end up having to self-research due to a) them not researching it b) them not trading it because it's a monopoly tech or because they are building the Taj themselves.

Most likely if you play larger maps, so chances are higher that some AIs tech Natio.
Agree that i almost always self tech with 6 AIs, big tech and if i use Cuirs i would not really have time to wait for them.

 

[Seraiel]

I don't want to derail this thread much, but can you give some pointers on how to achieve this? I've tried having the AI tech Nationalism for me and trade for it a number of times (giving them Philosophy early), but usually end up having to self-research due to a) them not researching it b) them not trading it because it's a monopoly tech or because they are building the Taj themselves.

I block Paper / Education from the AI and trade Philsophy as early as possible, at least as long as I get a decent trade for it. The AI can only chose 2 techs in advance, so when they don't have Paper, they cannot choose any tech past Education, leaving them with the upper and lower tech-paths. Nationalism has a Wonder and a Civic, so it then gets chosen really often by the AIs.

 

[pi-r8]

Cuirrassiers aren't really that hard to get, and their advantage lasts for a long time. I don't know about your games, but in 60-70% of my games, I don't have to tech Nationalism because the AI does it for me, making Cuirrs just 1 tech away, and yes, their time-window is quite large because AI almost never techs them, and Rifles are far away from Cuirrs. Good thing about Cuirrs is, that they're so much superior to the normal units of all previous times, that they can even do without amphibious.

I understand the way you're thinking of really well though. Grens lie on the way towards Chemistry, which is extremely helpful with those approaches because Frigates are great protection and good on bombarding culture. However, Grens are miles away from Cuirrs and even more miles away from Beserkers, and Berserkers cannot even be upgraded into Grens.

What might make you think, though, is that Airships actually aren't that far away from Astro, because both techs can be bulbed with GSs, and Airships + Beserkers = win.

Sounds funny, but in Replay #6, I used Airships + Elephants because I had possibility to get MT due to needing Lib for Medicine. I remember it working quite well, even without amphibious promotion, though tbh, I'm quite sure, that Cuirrs + Galleons are still the fastest and strongest way, and that basically all of this isn't really worth it, if you don't have spare ships that usually server other purposes (like on Big & Small i. e. ) . Doing this on a Pangaea is a straight waste of Resources and tech-power.

Well, I was thinking that cuirs are far away because I was planning to go directly from machinery to astronomy, bulbing astronomy before I even get civil service (because otherwise the scientist would bulb paper). So getting cuirs would require a whole bunch of extra techs like music, philosophy, nationalism, paper, education/guild, and gunpowder. But I suppose you can pick up a lot of those just by trading astronomy around.

You're right, I was looking at the path of engineering -> chemistry -> mil science. At some point I'm going to need frigates, since I'll run out of espionage points, and having amphibious grenadiers with CR3 would just be awesome. I didn't realize you can't upgrade Berzerkers to grenadiers, that really sucks!

Airships are definitely a possibility, especially if I've already vassalized a neighbor and can stage airships in their cities. With airships and frigates, I think berzerkets or cuirs users could pretty much take down anything . It might be hard to generate enough Gpp though, I'll also want some great spyies.

This would definitely be for a water map, probably continents or big and small.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Not being able to upgrade Bezerkers to Grenadiers doesn't seem correct. I have upgraded Macemen to Grenadiers and Bezerkers are based on Macemen, so it just doesn't right. Has anyone actually tested this in World Builder?

Teching to Chemistry and building Frigates to bombard with is certainly a good alternative to Espionage and Support City Revolt missions.

One can certainly build The Great Wall, beeline Code of Laws, whip a Couthouse, run a Spy specialist and generate several early Great Spies. Either:

1) Use the Great Spies for infiltration missions.

2) In the capital, settle 1st Great Spy, construct Scotland Yard, and settle the rest.

3) In the bureaucratic capital and other high commerce cities, build Scotland Yard and use a high espionage slider. One can maintain tech parity by giving the tech leader a city near our capital (or move our capital near to one of that AI's cities) and steal technologies at high discounts.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

STW is right, and I have no idea what caused me to think that that upgrade is / was impossible... Chain of thoughts must somehow have been, me remembering that only XBows are suited to get Machineguns via Grenadiers, and completely forgetting about Grenadiers offensive value... So yes, amphibious Grenadiers would probably work really well. When thinking about this I notice, that this would actually even be the best way to use them, because Grens get farmed by Rifles on the open field. If they were on Frigates though, AI needed Military Science (which it won't have when having Rifling) or even Combustion to stop an amphibious assault with Grens.

 

[dankok8]

Vikings are the best. Berserkers' ability to raze coastal cities is quite awesome.

Chinese are beast too. Normally siege that cause collateral cannot attack out of ships but Chukonu's can.