Apostolic Palace sneaky question

[blitzkrieg1980]

You don't. The game will decide when a situation arises that allows a vote. It then provides you with a pop-up to vote. For example:

If a full member of the AP (Mehmed) is at war with a non-member (Shaka), after a few turns, a pop-up will be presented with options like "Stop the war on Mehmed" or "All members declare war on Shaka".

Trade embargo resolutions often pop up when trade is occurring between members and a heathen state. Also, if there are members who aren't trading with one-another, you might see a resolution pop up: "All members open borders."

There are plenty of others, but the AI assesses the current status of the game and presents you with resolutions situationally.

 

[Veritass]

But I never got whatever option it is for a victory. In this case, I had spread my religion to the other two Civs. Do they have to switch to my religion to allow such a vote? Thanks for the help.

 

[KMadCandy]

all civs have to have the AP religion in at least one city for the victory vote to be an option. it doesn't matter whether they're full or voting members, just that they're members. you said "the two other Civs" tho, so i guess that was everybody.

as of patch 3.13, the victory votes for the AP and the UN won't come up if one civ has enough votes to win. even if others would vote for you, you just don't get the chance. so that was probably it.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, a good change IMO. It makes the diplo victory harder on smaller maps (much easier before this change).

 

[r_rolo1]

^^ Even with the 3.13 changes, you can still get a cheesy AP diplo win: just have a good idea of how many votes you can have max and have a vassal....

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Good point. But at least you have to do some homework

 

[Omegon3]

So I'm going to build the AP to get the production bonuses, and to stop the buddhists from shafting me if they build it later. I already have that wonder that increases the culture of religious buildings, is that Sistine Chapel, can't remember..., so my half-price Jewish temples (spiritual) will be beautiful little buildings pumping out 6 and 2 per turn plus the usual happiness bonus

I have built the AP many times and am not familiar with the production bonus I get from it...?? Also, I really don't think that the Sistine Chapel increases the culture of religious buildings, but gives you "specialists" in your cities (might be the same thing, but I don't think so). Please enlighten me on both points.

Regarding the "half-price Jewish temples", don't forget the monetary and science perks you get from them if you have the Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore (two of my "key" Great Works for progressing nicely through the technologies!!).

I really don't like the idea of Firaxis "fixing" the diplomatic victory -- my eyes always lit up when I saw the option come up since I knew I would be virtually guarantee a victory (I've only had one time where the other "voting" civs didn't support my election -- the seem to back you a LOT more in AP elections than in UN attempts at victory).

Also, the AP can be useful in stealing cities from other civilizations -- anyone know if this is still an option with the 3.13 patch? And, if I REALLY didn't like another civilization, the various trade and war options are always good.

 

[Airefuego]

I have built the AP many times and am not familiar with the production bonus I get from it...?? Also, I really don't think that the Sistine Chapel increases the culture of religious buildings, but gives you "specialists" in your cities (might be the same thing, but I don't think so). Please enlighten me on both points.

OK there is definitely a production bonus for other religious buildings of the AP's religion - quote from the Info Center:

Leaders who share the Palace's religion (or who own the Palace) become full voting members. They also enjoy a production bonus to every building of that religion in their cities. Leaders who don't have that as their state religion, but happen to have cities that share the religion don't get the production bonuses but they still get a vote on all Palace resolutions. A full voting member can have their production bonuses revoked and suffer a happiness penalty if they openly defy a resolution.

I couldn't remember how much the bonus was but Naismith says 2 hammers so I went with that.

As for the Sistine Chapel, as of BTS it has changed a bit, it now gives a +5 culture bonus for each religious building, its major benefit is something else, probably still specialist-related, but again without the Civilopedia loaded I just can't remember what Terrible eh? ... but believe me it's there

Regarding the "half-price Jewish temples", don't forget the monetary and science perks you get from them if you have the Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore (two of my "key" Great Works for progressing nicely through the technologies!!).

YES! great points if you have all four wonders mentioned above, temples become all-powerful!

 

[jray]

^^ Even with the 3.13 changes, you can still get a cheesy AP diplo win: just have a good idea of how many votes you can have max and have a vassal....

Has anyone verified that this works? In other words, can you really just arrange things so that you're barely below the threshold and then earn a vassal to put you over the top? Does the vassal always vote for you like with the UN?

I wonder if someone can remind me of the new rules in 3.13. Here are some other things I'm still not sure about:

1. What is the threshold percentage for victory? I've seen both 2/3 and 3/4 asserted in this thread.

2. Does an AP diplomatic victory require that at least two civs have the AP religion as their state religion, or does it work if you're the only one?

3. Is it possible for your vassal to be your opponent? If so, does he still have to vote for you?

 

[eewallace]

But I never got whatever option it is for a victory. In this case, I had spread my religion to the other two Civs. Do they have to switch to my religion to allow such a vote? Thanks for the help.

For some reason, I've always thought there had to be at least 3 other civs for the AP to give you a diplomatic victory option. Not sure where I got that idea, but if that is the case, that would explain why you couldn't get it with only 2 remaining civs.

 

[bardolph]

Where can I find a list of exactly what resolutions can be passed with the AP?

 

[KMadCandy]

Where can I find a list of exactly what resolutions can be passed with the AP?

F8 screen ingame. i haven't cross-referenced it with the pedia to see if they match. if they do disagree, F8 would be the correct one is my guess.

 

[jray]

Has anyone verified that this works? In other words, can you really just arrange things so that you're barely below the threshold and then earn a vassal to put you over the top? Does the vassal always vote for you like with the UN?

I wonder if someone can remind me of the new rules in 3.13. Here are some other things I'm still not sure about:

1. What is the threshold percentage for victory? I've seen both 2/3 and 3/4 asserted in this thread.

2. Does an AP diplomatic victory require that at least two civs have the AP religion as their state religion, or does it work if you're the only one?

3. Is it possible for your vassal to be your opponent? If so, does he still have to vote for you?

I ended up answering some of these questions for myself in my latest game, with Prince difficulty, Standard map, Monarch speed, Raging Barbs, and 7 AI opponents (in case that matters):

1. You must obtain 75% of the votes for a religious diplomatic victory. Also, if you yourself (excluding vassals) have less than 75% but your vassals have votes that when supplementing yours passes 75%, then the diplomatic victory option does indeed come up. So it appears that you can simply bully your way into religions diplomatic victory, just like before. Only difference is you need to make sure you have less than 75% of the votes all by yourself. If you have 74% and get a piddly little 1-city vassal with your AP religion, you win.

2. Donno, I had a vassal with my AP state religion the whole time.

3. Your vassal can be your opponent, and he votes for himself.

 

[Naismith]

If you do have all the votes you need by yourself, don't fret. Just build some missionaries and convert AI cities until you are under the threshold again.

 

[jray]

If you do have all the votes you need by yourself, don't fret. Just build some missionaries and convert AI cities until you are under the threshold again.

True, but you'd still need a vassal or a great friend.

Just a little anecdote about how I won my last game... Since my opponent (Zara) was my vassal, I tried to starve him into 3rd place so that Willem would become my opponent and Zara would have to vote for me. So I spammed spies and poisoned and fomented unhappiness in all Zara's cities every 8 turns. He lost about 10 population by the time the next vote came up, to 108. But the next rival had only 107. DOH! However, I happened to get a random event 2 turns earlier where I donated archives to a museum and gained a +1 relations boost with everyone, and that was the tipping point for Pericles to vote for me. Random events FTW! It preserved the "diplomatic" nature of the victory too. But don't think I won't be willing to employ starvation diplomacy next time .

 

[backblast]

I ended up answering some of these questions for myself in my latest game, with Prince difficulty, Standard map, Monarch speed, Raging Barbs, and 7 AI opponents (in case that matters):

3. Your vassal can be your opponent, and he votes for himself.

Just finished a game where I was bitten by this. I was just a few votes short of the margin (including votes of my 3 vassals), so I attacked my rival to take a few of his cities. But when the next vote came up, my competition in the vote switched to my vassal, and I failed again to achieve diplo victory! Glad see a forum search turned up that this does seem to the design behavior of the AP.

BTW, I did win the game-- by conquest. My original rival was the only remaining free civ; after another 15 turns of war and I had taken enough cities to force capitulation. Given the way I was playing the game, a conquest victory was more appropriate-- though it would have been nice to avoid the 15 rather tedious turns of combat.