Apparently AI's sometimes tech really well!

[danaphanous]

So I've heard some complaints about the AI's less direct approach to teching. I am currently playing a Deity game that is blowing this theory up.

There are 8 civs on a huge Pangaea map. So much space. I've put on raging barbs thinking we'd all start kinda nerfed in expansion and have fun clawing our way into civilization against hordes of barbs. That's how it worked for me and I've been fighting for every inch of territory as Songhai (first time ever playing them). Didn't work on the AI though. Not only did they somehow get and support massive initial armies, they were warring with each other immediately. I watched the Zulu spam literally 20 cities and attack all 4 of his neighbors. Same with the Inca and Assyria. They have huge empires and no problems. If anything they expanded about twice as fast as I'm used to seeing them do...maybe due to the reduced number of civs? Anyway...they outclassed me in tech...first game ever. I just watched Sejong sail into the modern era in 1400 AD. I'm an age behind him. I don't think I'll be winning this game but it was fun to struggle and fail I guess. Never seen AI do this well...ever...even on my previous Deity game.

 

[Moriarte]

Reducing number of civs and allowing raging barbs on huge deity is a recipe for disaster. Barbs are already raging when they are standard (on huge), since there is so much free space. You just made it an absolute nightmare, i guess.

Sometimes they do spend their cash and manage to run away fairly quickly, sometimes they just pile it up, keeping tens of thousands and not spending it. Seems random to me.

 

[joncnunn]

Deity level is the one level where the AI can use its bonuses as a springboard. (From the extra settler & giant food discount to grow)

AI also gets a lot of free starting units; which it probably used to clear the camps before they spawned a lot of barbs in their area.

 

[beetle]

Deity level is the one level where the AI can use its bonuses as a springboard.

I am not surprised that a sparsely populated map would make things relatively easier for the AI at higher difficulty levels.

AI also gets a lot of free starting units; which it probably used to clear the camps before they spawned a lot of barbs in their area.

This I don’t understand. I thought that conventional wisdom is that raging barbarians makes things a little easer for the human player? Do you disagree with that? Or do you think the low number of AI civs caused raging barbs to have the opposite effect of usual?

I am thinking that playing without raging barbs would just have made the AI runaway even more...

 

[danaphanous]

That's what I thought Beetle, and there are still camps spawning over near them occasionally, but it didn't seem to make a difference this game, mainly because they were able to get such huge initial armies. I met and was wandering past Zulu and in sight of just one of their little cities was 4 swordsmen sitting there...barbs should've done well but they apparently hurt me more than the AI this game. Has not been the case on lower difficulty levels so it must be the starting units. I was hoping 1 of their 2 settlers would get capped and I'd have free workers but I never found any. Everyone I met founded and kept 3 cities.

 

[kb27787]

barbs always hurt me more than the AI (mainly because something in the code makes barbs target your lands more often than theirs);
but reducing the number of civs only amplifies the happiness advantage the AI gets since now they can expand more without warring.

 

[joncnunn]

This I don’t understand. I thought that conventional wisdom is that raging barbarians makes things a little easer for the human player? Do you disagree with that? Or do you think the low number of AI civs caused raging barbs to have the opposite effect of usual?

I am thinking that playing without raging barbs would just have made the AI runaway even more...

On most difficulty levels, raging barbs does make it easier for the human player.
But remember that on Deity, the AI starts with 3 warriors & a scout compared to the human's one warrior.
As long as the AI doesn't make an epic failure of losing one of its extra settlers to the barbs, it will initially have an easier time at this level.
Later it will depend upon what the military unit production flavor of each AI was. (Low military flavor AIs much more likely to have problem with barbs pillaging their land / losing a worker)

Also, the AI forgetting to escort their settler problem only occurs when going to a separate landmass.

You can however expect even on Deity for the AI to have a bunch of problems losing trade units / missionaries / great prophets / great merchants to barbs on a map that's both sparse that also has raging barbs on while humans bypass this.

 

[danaphanous]

Yeah, I guess it was a bad idea on Deity. I've had a lot of fun with this particular setup on lower levels though and had thought to see how it turned out on Deity. Now I know.

Well, if any better players than me are out of a challenge try these same settings:

1. Epic Speed
2. Deity Level AI
3. Raging Barbs
4. Huge Map
5. Rough Terrain
6. Pangaea
7. Reduce number of Civs from 12 to 8
8. Reduce number of city states from 24 to 12

Problems this creates:
- rough terrain slows expansion and worker progress
- raging barbs mess things up for trade and you get massive armies of them spawning in the wilderness due to reduced civ numbers. The rough terrain/huge pangaea makes it take forever to reach and disperse them too so take at least 2-3 units for the far away ones. I took the Honor Opener and starting capping every new nearby one as quick as I could get there with little 2-3 groups of troops. Kept them under control.
- Epic speed magnifies AI tech advantage and makes it take longer to produce and tech to the point that you have the barbs under control. AI on the other hand already is near techs that greatly reduce barb problems such as bronze working, archers...etc.
- magnifies AI happiness and gold advantages by allowing them to expand much farther than usual before they start warring with each other. One of the main tools to victory on Deity is exploiting AI's warring each other.
- screws you on trading as the likelihood of being near a CS is virtually none and due to raging barbs making a new city that is decent and protected to produce trade routes is much more difficult. AI on the other hand start almost with the tech for trade routes and 2 settlers to set them up.

If you do all these things and win then I will fully admit you are twice the player I am. I also can upload my particular map if you guys want. It's beautiful. I got this enormous mountain range that splices through the whole continent virtually isolating me back in this pocket. Near the Zulu but they ignored me...probably because I'm difficult to get too and surrounded by mountains. This helps by sparing you from Barbs and AI to some extent but turned out bad as it nerfed my city after population 13. Ran out of food and had to ship in a cargo ship to get any sort of a decent growth rate after that. You also have the sub-continent to settle and it is very defensible. You guys may have better luck competing if you expand faster than I did and explore the mainland less. Focusing on taming and settling your area. I also grabbed 2 medieval/classical wonders that maybe I should've just ignored. I may replay myself to see if I can do better. If it turns out like this game though tech will be your biggest problem. Like I said I lot of them are in the industrial by 1300's and Sejong was in the modern by the 1400's. Zulu are a warmongering monstrosity: keeping up in tech, first to ideologies (got autocracy about the time Sejong pulled his feat) and also settle like 15 core cities before expanding by war. Inca are doing the same. I rolled random map and got one that is maybe 1/2 hills/mountains so obviously he is loving that.