Aqueduct, Baray or Hammam?

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

MIGHT be able to trade for . I'm not convinced it's as easy as that . Small empires often struggle for spare resources to offload ( and small empires with large cities are just the type who would benefit from the Hammam) , diplo often means less viable trading partners . Alternatively , warmongers will love whipping hammams into newly conquered cities .

Also , of course monarchy allows unlimited happiness . But I don't want to research monarchy unless heading for feudalism . The Hammam allows you to hold off longer .

 

[strijder20]

@strijder20 Growth is more important in whipping. So which is more valuable? Food or Happiness which you can trade for?

Larger cities = higher growth (if you grew onto grassland farms, which is usually possible) = more whips. It also allows you to whip out the small cities more (maybe you whipped them small? ) without growing into unhappiness.
HR allows 'unlimited' happiness, but it does require a hammer investment and sometimes has an upkeep cost.
Although you have a point, the Baray certainly gets at least close to the Hammam in whipping aspects.
At the other hand, the Hammam helps post-whipping too, until at least the renaissance (after which happiness is usually in abundance). The one food of the Baray doesn't even net you a full pop-point.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Larger cities = higher growth (if you grew onto grassland farms, which is usually possible) = more whips. It also allows you to whip out the small cities more (maybe you whipped them small? ) without growing into unhappiness.
HR allows 'unlimited' happiness, but it does require a hammer investment and sometimes has an upkeep cost.
Although you have a point, the Baray certainly gets at least close to the Hammam in whipping aspects.
At the other hand, the Hammam helps post-whipping too, until at least the renaissance (after which happiness is usually in abundance). The one food of the Baray doesn't even net you a full pop-point.

Mm well most my empires tend to be large with small cities. So the extra 1 food adds up over time in whips.

 

[Higher Game]

@strijder20 Growth is more important in whipping. So which is more valuable? Food or Happiness which you can trade for?

100 hammers just for the 1 food is dubious, though. Maybe for very hilly maps, lots of plains, etc. But, it won't make an average city into a good whipping city (in any amount of practical time), and a good whipping city has other priorities at that point.

Mm well most my empires tend to be large with small cities. So the extra 1 food adds up over time in whips.

Try making more courthouses instead.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Wow you think I am brain dead and don't know to make courthouses..... To bad Wealth is a better hammer investment.

 

[goldys_lackey]

Wow you think I am brain dead and don't know to make courthouses..... To bad Wealth is a better hammer investment.

Zx Zero Zx, would you be interested in hosting a playthrough of a slavery game?

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Uhhh what's the difference between a slavery game and a normal game? I just whip the out of units to get a large army faster so I can win earlier. Besides I am already wanted to write a guide in SnT about tech brokering, and directing the AIs research with out them being your vassal. I have to much to do and I am a very lazy pothead!

 

[cseanny]

+1 is a lot more useful than +2 .

Easily. Especially once your cities become big and the game progresses (Industrial age comes into mind). As far as the Hamman being better early game.... I'm still not convinced. If you're planning on war and some whipping then timing is an issue. You want units out asap and if you whip any type of aqueduct, then imo, you have already missed out on whipping an additional 2-3 units. I'd much rather whip all my cities into 2-3 unhappy faces (or more if food allows) and quickly amass a large army sooner rather than later.

Also , of course monarchy allows unlimited happiness . But I don't want to research monarchy unless heading for feudalism . The Hammam allows you to hold off longer .

On Immortal plus all you need is Asthetics a few turns into Alpha, and maybe a few turns into Monarchy and you can trade for Monarchy very early, so no worries there.

On Emperor and below you need to research it yourself but imo its always worth it. Personally I don't care if its a dead end tech because for 15 hammers I get 1 happy face. For the cost of an aqueduct you can get about 6.5 warriors which allows you to grow even bigger, quicker, work more tiles sooner, and don't even need to whip to get them (which cost you more production/commerce/etc).

Besides, if you're going to go up that tech path a nice way to do it is tech Myst/Med/Priest (Oracle chopped in 2nd city)/Writing/Pottery/Alpha (fee tech)/Monarchy>to whatever you want from there.

This still allows you to quickly expand to 5 cities and use your Capital to run 2 scientist + build research and when your other cities can, they help. Typically get Monarchy around 1300-1400 this way which lets you grow your Capital to 14+ by 1AD (and other cities big too). Plus going up that tech path early lets you have your neighbors spam you some religion so you can build at least a couple Monastery's to help boost research further.

 

[goldys_lackey]

Uhhh what's the difference between a slavery game and a normal game? I just whip the out of units to get a large army faster so I can win earlier. Besides I am already wanted to write a guide in SnT about tech brokering, and directing the AIs research with out them being your vassal. I have to much to do and I am a very lazy pothead!

Well you've been posting for at least a month about how you can forget the Lib race and just whip your way to early victory. I suspect some of us are skeptical, and others of us are just curious to see you do it and be enlightened as we haven't perfected the whip. No pressure of course but again, I for one would really like to see you do a playthrough on these forums if you get the chance. That's all.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

On Immortal plus all you need is Asthetics a few turns into Alpha, and maybe a few turns into Monarchy and you can trade for Monarchy very early, so no worries there.

.

True . But the Hammam gives me the chance to avoid ALL the religious techs , including mysticism . The opportunities that this allows in terms of beelining currency , HBR , construction , machinery , etc are extremely powerful

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Well you've been posting for at least a month about how you can forget the Lib race and just whip your way to early victory. I suspect some of us are skeptical, and others of us are just curious to see you do it and be enlightened as we haven't perfected the whip. No pressure of course but again, I for one would really like to see you do a playthrough on these forums if you get the chance. That's all.

Well I only started posting regularly because before I was still trying to be #1 ranked lurker in the world. But I decided that I needed to add my strategies into the mix so I started posting. I will roll some starts later to see if I can find one that's not god awful, I have the worst luck with the RNG with starts and fighting. Also my strategies ALL abuse the whip no matter if I war early or don't need to. So you want me to do a play through of a Medieval war game. Maybe I can get another 500 - 800 AD Knight win for you to write up. But you also have to remember I do play the map, so if a Medieval war is not going to win the game for me I won't do it, and I will play the safer route. When this happens it is because of one huge religious block that makes the tech rate fly away with the pigs. Also it won't be on Deity because I tend to be much more cautious on Deity as in small mistake can have dire consequences.

 

[cseanny]

True . But the Hammam gives me the chance to avoid ALL the religious techs , including mysticism . The opportunities that this allows in terms of beelining currency , HBR , construction , machinery , etc are extremely powerful

Immortal+ you don't research Myst/Med or Poly/Priest, you trade for them from Asthetics/Alpha>Literature for me. The worst case scenario is normally 2 turns into Monarchy, then voila, trade for that too. On lower levels, after you get Monarchy, you can still grab currency and HBR in the 1000BCs......plus the AI won't have any techs like currnecy, mc, so why not get bigger cities quicker, work more tiles, and research those techs you want to beeline to that much faster?

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Immortal+ you don't research Myst/Med or Poly/Priest, you trade for them from Asthetics/Alpha>Literature for me. The worst case scenario is normally 2 turns into Monarchy, then voila, trade for that too. On lower levels, after you get Monarchy, you can still grab currency and HBR in the 1000BCs......plus the AI won't have any techs like currnecy, mc, so why not get bigger cities quicker, work more tiles, and research those techs you want to beeline to that much faster?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T RESEARCH THEM?@!?@ I do it all the time to get the Oracle.

 

[cseanny]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T RESEARCH THEM?@!?@ I do it all the time to get the Oracle.

Lol, so do I but my point was @ Rugby

So you want me to do a play through of a Medieval war game. Maybe I can get another 500 - 800 AD Knight win for you to write up.

I'd love to see this too!!, well, as long as it's on Normal speed (seriously, Marathon doesn't count....it's SO different)

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

If you want a Marathon game go ask Serial as he has the time for play 1 game for a week. I'm not going to lie the Knight wars are very situational so don't be expecting one. Besides it will come after I do Tech Brokering Article. I am not good at writing papers so I will get a brain fart halfway through and stall.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T RESEARCH THEM?@!?@ I do it all the time to get the Oracle.

Easy . The oracle is an extremely good wonder , if not the best , when built at the appropriate time . It is not always appropriate . At high enough levels , a start without good commerce and or marble means forget it and I'd say you know this .

Heavy food or forested starts mean you simply are not going to get there in time . BW , pottery and writing are the techs you need and scientists fuel your research .

I just don't get how you can play at deity , have these regular early wins , and think that building The Oracle every time is a given . Even leaving out the fact it's hardly optimal , it just ain't possible without commerce . No way can you research mysticism , meditation , priesthood and BW cause you'll definitely have to chop it out without marble . This is before we even discuss AH or archery for defense if you don't have copper .

And even if you take an extreme beeline just to do it , miss it to an AI and you are screwed . It's not like this is some ingenious reasoning , it's pretty self evident

@Cseanny ..... I'm all for the aesthetics , alpha , monarchy thing and am %100 in agreeance . My point was , the Hammam allows for some cool alternatives that work nicely with this building

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

With a heavy forested start and enough workers you can get it in 1-2 turns pretty much. But as you said you can't get it every time. But to get the early wins you HAVE to get it. If you miss it you are better off turtling. Also getting Masonry to get marble actually makes it more likely for you to miss it. It's a gamble, and winning regularly on Deity is all about gambling.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can trade for a bajillion happiness or run HR with dudes in your cities that you need big. Food is very limited. The vast majority of my games I end up with a lot of size 4 cities with 500 turns of unhappiness left on Normal speed. I <3 Whipping.

Trading for is no gimme. Sometimes, you start in isolation or with 1-2 AI and can only get a total of 1-3 luxuries. You can try spamming units with monarchy, but as you well know that carries tremendous cost if the empire has any size to it. Alternatively, you can run the culture slider, but that requires a specific tech path and has its own costs.

Most cities in this game are in fact capped by either or more commonly during the most important early turns. You can say that 1 adds to production via the whip, but you can also pull off an additional 2 whip chains and get a lump sum of returned earlier and stay at the same relative to .

Sure, they baray is more useful when you have 5+ luxuries and lots of trade partners; but those situations are already good ones. Would you rather a UB that is somewhat better under good conditions, or one that shines in bad conditions and is always beneficial? The hammam is the latter, and to me the clear winner of this group.

 

[cseanny]

Most cities in this game are in fact capped by either or more commonly during the most important early turns. You can say that 1 adds to production via the whip, but you can also pull off an additional 2 whip chains and get a lump sum of returned earlier and stay at the same relative to .

Imo, lol this is more opinion then then actual game truth and is very dependent on ones play style. On higher levels I can always trade for Monarchy very early while beelining Asth>towards Music, and in conjunction with luxuries, the map, and trade (temples too) there is never a problem with happiness. If stone was around then a short detour for the Mids, then follow up the same path (but this time you have Representation and use culture slider for more happiness).

You can try spamming units with monarchy, but as you well know that carries tremendous cost if the empire has any size to it.

Imo its always better to have each city with 4-6 more population and the extra tiles being worked will easily counter the unit maintenance cost.

On the lower levels I'll Do an Oracle/Alpha slingshot/Monarchy or with a massive REX Oracle/Alpha/Currency. So for me, it usually always works out that I already have happiness or am in dire need of alpha/currency so I can get my economy online......Hammans would have to wait, either way because there would be more important priorities.

The +1F for the Baray is just so much better imo. Combats negative health better and really lets you grow into unhappiness even faster so you can get those big whip buildings out of the way (CH, Forge, Universities come to mind) very quickly. Of course forges, factories, coal plants, IW, etc start adding up unhealthiness quick so the +1F comes in handy there too.

Honestly, except maybe a few short term beelines/gambits I don't see how the Hamman is anything less than 2nd best.

 

[Higher Game]

Uhhh what's the difference between a slavery game and a normal game? I just whip the out of units to get a large army faster so I can win earlier. Besides I am already wanted to write a guide in SnT about tech brokering, and directing the AIs research with out them being your vassal. I have to much to do and I am a very lazy pothead!

Well, I use copious caffeine instead of pot, so my opinion carries quite a bit more authority.

You have to be whipping out those barays after mathematics, and just before construction. Presumably, you whipped out axes earlier.

Really, I don't see it. If you want a whipped up ancient war, the hammers spent on the baray take too long to pay back. For an economy, libraries, courthouses, and possibly marketplaces are stronger buildings.