Barracks during axe rush?

[jdstacey]

When pulling off an axe rush, is it worth it to build a barracks for one or both of your cities? Or should you just spend the hammers on more axemen?

I'm guessing that for Agg leaders, it's probably worth it due to the reduced cost. Most of the time, I do build at least one barracks.

 

[Cam_H]

Firstly, each game is different, and as such there's a degree of subjectivity about it.

Secondly, I agree that Aggressive leaders have the upper hand with cheap Barracks and the ability to get two promotions (Combat I and 'say' Cover) which is a decidedly good advantage.

Thirdly (or a sub-point of 'Firstly'), the difficulty level that you play on will allow greater or less scope to take your time.

 

[MarigoldRan]

It depends.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Yes, because you want to get access to things like shock, cover, CRII etc ASAP.

Axe rushing involves promotions. Those CRIII axes are worth like 2-3 regular axes.

I'd probably build a barracks in any city that will get out more then 3 axes during the rush.

 

[pi-r8]

Yes, because you want to get access to things like shock, cover, CRII etc ASAP.

Axe rushing involves promotions. Those CRIII axes are worth like 2-3 regular axes.

I'd probably build a barracks in any city that will get out more then 3 axes during the rush.

Hmm i really disagree. There's no way 1 CRIII axe is worth 3 regular axes (and it's not like a barracks let's you use CRIII anyway... just CRI). Most of the time, i don't think it's worth building a barracks for an axe rush... a barracks costs almost as much as 2 axes, and only gives a small bump for them in most situations.

The barracks is better in multiplayer though, since there's a lot more opportunities for fighting other axes in an even fight, where the barracks makes a huge difference in winning that tie.

 

[yuris125]

I consider Barracks to be in the "nice to have" category. If I have time before my copper comes online, and I would like the capital to grow meanwhile, I will build Barracks. If I don't, I won't be too sad. Have to say that I ususally do have time for it, but that's probably because my rushing techniques need to be improved (as well as all other skills )

Will be waiting for more opinions with interest

 

[vranasm]

I would build them in capital. The 2nd city is questionable (depends on forests around)

 

[WelshGandalf]

a barracks costs almost as much as 2 axes, and only gives a small bump for them in most situations.

This is a dishonest statement. Barracks = 50 , axeman = 35 . A Barracks therefore costs 50/35 = 1.43 hammers... nearer 1 axeman than 2

I go for it in my capital & maybe in the second city, just as vranasm does. I always would in my 2nd if I was playing an aggressive leader.

I'd rather 4 axemen with CR1 than 5 axemen (and 15 spare ) with no upgrades.

 

[Dirk1302]

Definitely build barracks in most if not all cities (i like AZ's guideline). You will be in slavery so it's just one 2 pop whip probably close to happy cap. Axes are more difficult to 2 pop whip, have to time precisely with overflow. CR1 definitely improves chances of survival and brings CRII and III which are very good for rushing closer.

 

[ben-jammin]

Hmm i really disagree. There's no way 1 CRIII axe is worth 3 regular axes (and it's not like a barracks let's you use CRIII anyway... just CRI). Most of the time, i don't think it's worth building a barracks for an axe rush... a barracks costs almost as much as 2 axes, and only gives a small bump for them in most situations.

The barracks is better in multiplayer though, since there's a lot more opportunities for fighting other axes in an even fight, where the barracks makes a huge difference in winning that tie.

a CR3 axeman will take down a defender that might cost 3+ regular axeman. Look at it this way:

CG1 archer in a flatland city with 20% cultural defense, totally fortified has a strength of 6.45 (plus its first strike)
CR3 axeman has a strength of 8.75, and you have a very good chance of taking out the top defender in one go. If you attack with an unpromoted axe, your first one dies almost guaranteed, and then you have to send another unpromoted axe to die against the next full health archer. Then there's always the scenario where you attack and die but do little or even no damage, and if you dont take out all the defenders in one turn you are facing a healed and promoted defender the next turn.

And yes, the barracks only gives you the first promotion. But the first promotion makes getting to level 3 so much faster and easier.

Also remember that if you decide to settle your first great general, which you tend to get pretty fast, you will be pumping out axes or swords that start at CR2. Not sure how many people actually settle though, it seems that super medics are what most people like to do.

 

[coanda]

I usually have a 'rax in the capital. There's not much call for multiple barracks - you can make good use of unpromoted axes for suicide charges, mop-up, and garrison duty. But having at least a few CR1 or combat 1 axes lying around really helps.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'd probably build a barracks in any city that will get out more then 3 axes during the rush.

I think this is the right idea, but 3 axes seems awfully low. Are three axes 3XP really worth more than 4 unpromoted axes and a warrior?


Time may be a useful consideration as well - you have however many hammers to invest between the time you realize that you want to rush, and the time copper is connected. I'd rather go worker -> barracks -> axe* than worker -> warrior x3 -> axe* if I've determined that I'm going to be rushing by T15.

 

[Cusanus]

I think this is the right idea, but 3 axes seems awfully low. Are three axes 3XP really worth more than 4 unpromoted axes and a warrior?

"... more than three."

Although this is still a little ambiguous: does it mean Absolute will build a barracks in every city that could get out 4 axemen if it didn't build the 'rax; or only in cities that can get the 'rax and at least four axemen?

For the latter case (which seems far more likely ), I think 4 axeman @ 3 XP are easily worth 5 axemen+1 warrior @ 0 XP.

- - -
For aggressive leaders, there's really no competition: if the city can build more than 1 axe, it should first get barracks.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Basically I just meant that the cities that would pump out a lot of axes ( main city for sure, and probably a second city ) would have a barracks. But I might have a newly settled city I which will only get out a few axes over the course of the war, in that city I wouldn't bother with a barracks.

Hard to calculate exactly but:

10 axes = 350 hammers / 50 strength = 7

10 combat 1 axes = 350 hammers + 50 for barracks / 55 strength = 7.27

Ratios are pretty close. With City raider the strength ratio of barracks would likely shoot a good deal ahead.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

The rax also helps with your whipping micromanagement (pre built rax makes for a nice 2 pop whip)

edit: unless agressive ofc
edit2: now I see Dirk's post... redundant info then

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Hard to calculate exactly but:

10 axes = 350 hammers / 50 strength = 7

10 combat 1 axes = 350 hammers + 50 for barracks / 55 strength = 7.27

Ratios are pretty close. With City raider the strength ratio of barracks would likely shoot a good deal ahead.

I agree that the calculation is hard, and a rough rule of thumb is the right way to go. But I'm not immediately convinced that 10% is a reasonable strength multiplier. My feeling is that it would be more useful to go through the hard calculation once, discover the multiplier, and go from there.


Two thoughts along the way:

First strikes probably means you want fewer combats with better odds over more combat.

The "value" of the city raider promotion is sensitive to the defensive bonuses in play. If the archer has only a 75% bonus, CRI is really strong. Give that same archer a hill, a promotion, and 40% culture, and you've got a problem. Of course, Combat I is an option if the defensive bonus is high enough, and effectively acts as a floor.

 

[JammerUno]

When you're rushing C will never be better than CR, that only happens at 120% defensive bonusses. If you're encountering those numbers at any decent number of cities, you might as well give up.

Usually, the biggest concern I have in this situation isn't the raw power per hammer. It's that I would rather have 10 vanilla axes than 7 with CR (assuming production in two cities). I won't be training enough axes for the barracks to give a good return before I attack.

If there's 4-5 defenders, I would rather have 3 additional axes to sacrifice and do some damage. In a rush, once you're over the hump (capital) you've pretty much succeeded anyway, with or without CR.

 

[pi-r8]

a CR3 axeman will take down a defender that might cost 3+ regular axeman. Look at it this way:

CG1 archer in a flatland city with 20% cultural defense, totally fortified has a strength of 6.45 (plus its first strike)
CR3 axeman has a strength of 8.75, and you have a very good chance of taking out the top defender in one go. If you attack with an unpromoted axe, your first one dies almost guaranteed, and then you have to send another unpromoted axe to die against the next full health archer. Then there's always the scenario where you attack and die but do little or even no damage, and if you dont take out all the defenders in one turn you are facing a healed and promoted defender the next turn.

And yes, the barracks only gives you the first promotion. But the first promotion makes getting to level 3 so much faster and easier.

Also remember that if you decide to settle your first great general, which you tend to get pretty fast, you will be pumping out axes or swords that start at CR2. Not sure how many people actually settle though, it seems that super medics are what most people like to do.

That's a really disingenous argument-you need to kill every archer in the city, not just 1, and 3 axes are much better for that than 1. Combat mechanics don't even work that way- all modifiers go to the defender except combat promos.

 

[Sian]

When you're rushing C will never be better than CR, that only happens at 120% defensive bonusses. If you're encountering those numbers at any decent number of cities, you might as well give up.

If Pret rushing with Rome, C is better pretty much till the enemy have Longbows

 

[ben-jammin]

That's a really disingenous argument-you need to kill every archer in the city, not just 1, and 3 axes are much better for that than 1. Combat mechanics don't even work that way- all modifiers go to the defender except combat promos.

Three axes isnt better than one if all three of your axes are going to die and you dont have enough units with them to finish off. It's also not better if you have just enough units to finish off to then have all your wounded attackers killed the next turn and the city liberated. You don't need to kill every defender in one turn, it's just really inefficient without a supermedic to attack for multiple turns if you're leaving injured defenders. If a promoted attacker can take out the top defender in one go, it's easily worth three axes without costing you 3x the maintenance, without giving the AI the extra great general points and experience, without wasting the crucial turns it took to pump out three suicide units.

Really low combat odds also give you a chance of dying without even doing any damage (or a really insignificant amount), which makes the unit you suicided a total loss.

re-doing the combat mechanics, the archer with cg1 with 20% cultural defense vs CR3 axe is 4.2 (archer) against 5. My mistake on the math, but the point still stands. Also remember that by not having to suicide as many units, you end up with more promotions in the first place. Bit of a snowball effect. Let's also not forget that barracks make an easy and efficient 2-pop whip that overflows into the next unit, whereas 2pop whipping axes can be tricky and unless you super micromanage will require you to whip without any hammers already in em with the penalty.