Best seafaring Civ

[walletta]

It is with great sadness that I must announce my decision (temporarily) to abandon (land-based) Civ III and to focus on naval play. To that end, I ask two questions::

1 which is the best seafaring civ, and
2 what are the best ways of exploiting the trait?

 

[tjs282]

It is with great sadness that I must announce my decision (temporarily) to abandon (land-based) Civ III and to focus on naval play. To that end, I ask two questions::

1 which is the best seafaring civ, and
2 what are the best ways of exploiting the trait?

(1) What a silly question

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest...

(2) Seriously though, I think it depends (as always) on what kind of game you want to play, on what landform and map-size, and at what difficulty level. The SEA trait is pretty useless on a Pan-map, so assuming you're going to start by stacking the deck against the AIs by choosing a Tiny-Standard 70-80%-Arch or 80%-Continents map...

The Carthaginians might be more useful for Conq/Dom on a Tiny/Small and/or 60-70% Cont-map, so that your NuMercs can make early inroads into the foreign hinterlands -- that way, your likely early GA, possibly while still Despotic, would not happen too 'soon' before the game was finished. But if you want to go conquering on a larger 80% Cont/Arch-map at say, up to Emp, then Ragnar's probably yer man -- so long as you can be sure to grab some Iron (upgrading Archers to Berserks though... even if it's allowed, it'll be expensive!). At higher levels (or larger maps), the Dutch might be a better bet for Domination (on Cont-maps), for the food-power to compete with the AI's rapid expansion, and a very cheap UU defender (A half-price Musket from a 1st-tier Mid-Age tech? I'd buy that for a dollar!). Or you could huddle on your home Continent, and trade everywhere, until you get voted in as UNSec.

OTOH, if you want to play a long Scientific-vic game, then the Byzzies are probably your go-to guys, at least up to Emp -- imagine being able to make your capital into your super-science town...? Or at higher levels, the English, for their double-CPT-bonus in port-towns (which nearly every town will be, on skinny Arch-maps) and 25% more cities to compensate for the lower OCN (for earning gold to buy techs); also, I do enjoy watching my Navy expand exponentially as my MoWs (and Privateers) enSlave all the AI-ships.

Maybe Spain for (cheap Religious) Culture-building ... maybe? The Byzzies are also a good option for that (and Dora is much cuter than Izzie!) -- although they do need to discover more techs to get their cheap Culture-buildings.

As for the Portuguese, just ... no. Not unless you're playing a Huge 80% Arch-map, so that Carracks can actually be useful in the very short window of game-time before they get obsoleted... The player who can win at DG/Deity with the Porties on a Tiny Arch/Cont-but-otherwise-Random map, has truly mastered the game...

 

[walletta]

Thanks muchly tjs282. I left the question open to allow a width of replies. The English are the only seafarers I've played and, like you, I got a buzz out of the Man 'o War. I think I like the sound of them Byzantiums though. Might give them a crack.

 

[Buttercup]

Seafaring has some notable bonuses:

Half price Harbours - This cannot be underestimated on island maps where cities are restricted from using more than 3 or 4 land tiles.

+1 to naval speed of all boats - this makes early naval exploration so much easier. Combined with one of the Wonders you can explore most of the world before navigation. Good for Tech trading, resource accumulation and land grabbing. Like people who've played Industrious who then switch to something else, it can be quite hard to readjust to playing a civ with terribly slow naval movement.

Which is the best civ to use with the seafaring trait? Not entirely sure, they're all a bit quirky by having one trait used by Seafaring, but Netherlands and Byzantine seem to be the most popular with England being the average and Carthage and Portugal the least used. My personal favourite is English because the Commercial trait gives less corruption when/if you found any further islands while exploring. Also, if you're confined to limited space, as is often the case with islands, it's nice to get the Gold fully maxed out, especially for the Colossus/Copernicus/Newton's combo in the capital.

 

[timerover51]

It is with great sadness that I must announce my decision (temporarily) to abandon (land-based) Civ III and to focus on naval play. To that end, I ask two questions::

1 which is the best seafaring civ, and
2 what are the best ways of exploiting the trait?

Come on in, the Water is fine.

Hmm, I lean toward the Byzantines and the Netherlands.

Use the +1 movement to explore, explore, explore.

I have modded the game to boost all of the Seafaring civilizations. Probably the English get the best in that, because aside from boosting the Man-of-War, it upgrades to Ironclad which upgrades to Battleship.

I do have a Naval Mod that I am in the process of updating as well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322522

 

[tjs282]

Thanks muchly tjs282. I left the question open to allow a width of replies. The English are the only seafarers I've played and, like you, I got a buzz out of the Man 'o War. I think I like the sound of them Byzantiums though. Might give them a crack.

If you're interested, there's a Byzantian 4000 BC savegame here that you might like to take a crack at, if you haven't been following the story. Be warned, it's DG, and on a Small, Randomly-assigned

Spoiler :

3 bn yr Arid Temperate 60% Pangaea (as I discovered to my disgust)

map with Raging Barbs.

I'm pretty sure my attempt at that game is unwinnable at this stage

Spoiler :

(it was probably unwinnable since about 170 turns ago, when all the remaining AICivs Industrialised while I was still slogging through the early Mid-Age...!). I've (mis)played it through as far as Turn 363, 1796 AD -- the mid-Industrial (for me, not my nearest rival, who is already Modern), but I haven't posted any progress reports since mid-December, nor even played any turns on it since the beginning of last month (been playing COTMs instead).

I've been toying with the idea of having another bash at it, but that would be against my roolz for the thread: I should really just bite the bullet, kick the bucket, and roll another game. In the meantime, you're welcome to it

 

[justanick]

The Dutch are agricultural and that makes them an excellent choice. At higher difficulty settings however the carthagians are better because of their early UU. Pikes without resources in the ancient age that can be used to attack are neat.

As for the original question i would stick with England. Utilize them properly and their superior base commerce will outpace the reserach of your enemies. The MoW are almost just a bonus, but in their quite long era spanning at least till combustion they outclass any enemy and will convert those enemies into new MoW not requiring any unit support. Those support free MoW are good for artillery bombardement. They can bombard your enemies into the stone age.

http://www.civforum.de/showthread.p...h-gegen-Justanick/page7&p=2672275#post2672275

But if you want to go conquering on a larger 80% Cont/Arch-map at say, up to Emp, then Ragnar's probably yer man -- so long as you can be sure to grab some Iron (upgrading Archers to Berserks though... even if it's allowed, it'll be expensive!).

Why would one need iron? Berserkers donnot need iron. They simply go berserk and leave little enemy still alive.

Or at higher levels, the English, for their double-CPT-bonus in port-towns (which nearly every town will be, on skinny Arch-maps) and 25% more cities to compensate for the lower OCN (for earning gold to buy techs)

OCN does not depend in the difficulty level, only on the map size. Nopt does depend on difficulty level. And so does the bonus commercial gives to Nopt, so the difficulty argument would not seem to apply. Notably the effects from courthouses and police stations donnot depend on difficulty level, so their relative value does increase with difficulty level.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619

 

[Theov]

Location Location Location.
Build many cities at the borders of your island/continent, the cheap harbors will give you more food.
Add the Dutch and you will have more food at the center tile already... meaning more population etc. Play on wet maps, and this will add rivers and this will strengthen it.

Play on continents (oceans) and you will love the Portuguese because you will travel the oceans faster with the Carrack which is safe at oceans.

Play as the Byzantines and you will have Dromons who will be a serious pain in the you-know-what (I mean ass) for your opponents.

What else. The Spanish? Meh, who likes being religious and have Conquisthings if you can build explorers that can scout enemy land without a ROP.

The Vikings are a joy if you have to hop islands. You will absolutely love them.... LOVE them on archipelago maps and you got war on your mind.

Carthage is industrious, which is always good and gives you the Mercenary. They are quite alright and later on give extra shields when you grow cities/metros.

 

[walletta]

Much food for thought here. I like the idea of raping and pillaging with Berserkers. Those guys were sweetie pies, weren't they?

 

[Bartleby]

Location Location Location.
...
The Spanish? Meh, who likes being religious and have Conquisthings if you can build explorers that can scout enemy land without a ROP.
...

The outstanding thing about Conquistadors is the amount of pillaging they can do if you make an Army with them.

 

[Desertsnow]

I tend to play on standard or large maps with continents and 70% water, or occasionally large maps with islands and 60% water, so this may reflect my personal style. Anyway I play Spain from time to time, being partial to the religious civilizations (though I don't like Conquistadors), and done well, but among the seafaring civs I tend to prefer the Byzantines. The Byzantine Dromon is almost too powerful. Prioritize seafaring techs, found coastal cities, build harbours, and then build lots of Dromons, both as explorers (including suicide explorers) and for war. You'll pwn the opposition's navy--and the coastal cities (meaning you'll have more coastal cities to produce more ships, which is a good thing for any seafaring civ). The fire attack does make the difference. You'll rule the sea until galleons become common.

The Byzzies are also a scientific civ (which I like), so you should be able to keep your tech up to parity. Cheap libraries are a good thing. Personally, I really, really, really dislike falling behind in advancement.

Recommended wonders: Lighthouse, Magellan, or any scientific wonder.

 

[timerover51]

The outstanding thing about Conquistadors is the amount of pillaging they can do if you make an Army with them.

You certainly have that right. I have done that, and they are devastating. Plus, I really like the one-term anarchy for government change.

 

[timerover51]

I tend to play on standard or large maps with continents and 70% water, or occasionally large maps with islands and 60% water, so this may reflect my personal style. Anyway I play Spain from time to time, being partial to the religious civilizations (though I don't like Conquistadors), and done well, but among the seafaring civs I tend to prefer the Byzantines. The Byzantine Dromon is almost too powerful. Prioritize seafaring techs, found coastal cities, build harbours, and then build lots of Dromons, both as explorers (including suicide explorers) and for war. You'll pwn the opposition's navy--and the coastal cities (meaning you'll have more coastal cities to produce more ships, which is a good thing for any seafaring civ). The fire attack does make the difference. You'll rule the sea until galleons become common.

The Byzzies are also a scientific civ (which I like), so you should be able to keep your tech up to parity. Cheap libraries are a good thing. Personally, I really, really, really dislike falling behind in advancement.

Recommended wonders: Lighthouse, Magellan, or any scientific wonder.

Ah, a comrade in arms when it comes to maps.

 

[Theov]

You certainly have that right. I have done that, and they are devastating. Plus, I really like the one-term anarchy for government change.

I might try the spanish out... see if I can pillage the opponents back to the stone age.

 

[walletta]

Why are conquistadors so good at pillaging?

Trying the Byzantines. As stated upthread, that Dromon is awesome.

 

[tjs282]

Why are conquistadors so good at pillaging?

They have 2 MP, and all terrain as roads (like Explorers). But putting just one of them into an Army gives them 3 MP -- and since pillaging costs 0 MP for an Army, a Conquistadore-Army can pillage 9 times in a single turn (i.e. up to 9 tiles, depending on whether the tiles have got rails yet!).

You might need to protect it though: even with 3 vConquistadores, the Army would only have D=2+((3*2)/6)=3 before MilAcad, and I'm not sure if the 12 HP would be enough in itself to deter an AI Cav-attack (if not, then D=4(.5) after MilAcad probably would be enough to tip the balance, at least until Tanks -- but how's the AI going to get those when their Oil and Rubber keeps getting disconnected...? ).

 

[Theov]

They have 2 MP, and all terrain as roads (like Explorers). But putting just one of them into an Army gives them 3 MP -- and since pillaging costs 0 MP for an Army, a Conquistadore-Army can pillage 9 times in a single turn (i.e. up to 9 tiles, depending on whether the tiles have got rails yet!).

You might need to protect it though: even with 3 vConquistadores, the Army would only have D=2+((3*2)/6)=3 before MilAcad, and I'm not sure if the 12 HP would be enough in itself to deter an AI Cav-attack (if not, then D=4(.5) after MilAcad probably would be enough to tip the balance, at least until Tanks -- but how's the AI going to get those when their Oil and Rubber keeps getting disconnected...? ).

Yes. This is my new go-to strategy.
1: get at war with someone (yes, nothing has changed, this is a war game to me)
2: get one of their neighbors involved.
(optional 2b: if the enemy is weaker, give the enemy resources to put up a fight)
3a: see them throw everything at each other
3b: in the meanwhile pillage the capital - I love to rip the heart out of a civilization-, luxuries, strategic resources and workers.
4: take out the defenses, don't worry too much about counter attacks (see 3a) and fight against sub-par defenders the rest of the way (see 3b).

Note that point 2 and 3b are the keys to this awesome strategy.

 

[walletta]

Yes. This is my new go-to strategy.
1: get at war with someone (yes, nothing has changed, this is a war game to me)
2: get one of their neighbors involved.
(optional 2b: if the enemy is weaker, give the enemy resources to put up a fight)
3a: see them throw everything at each other
3b: in the meanwhile pillage the capital - I love to rip the heart out of a civilization-, luxuries, strategic resources and workers.
4: take out the defenses, don't worry too much about counter attacks (see 3a) and fight against sub-par defenders the rest of the way (see 3b).

Note that point 2 and 3b are the keys to this awesome strategy.

As I've said before, if you guys ever plan on (real) world domination, I want to be on your side.

I'm enjoying the Byzantines. I keep getting put on an island with the Zulu which means, no matter how hard I try to pacify them, they will sooner or later launch into a land war I am ill-equipped to withstand. This time, though, I boxed clever. After a couple of reloads, rather than build out from Constantinople, I presented it as the only square the Zulus could get at by land. It's a two front port, now proudly boasting the Colossus. A mixture of Byzantium itself and Rorke's Drift. Having no iron, I built the Knights Templar and now with a Belisarius's army of crusaders and Justinian's of spears, and flanked to seaward by marauding Dromons, I can see nothing to prevent a monopoly on 'my' island, with two more already under control.

Quite good fun, I must admit.

 

[Desertsnow]

The Zulu are one of the most aggressive civs in the game, so yeah, you have to be ready for a fight if you have them as a neighbor, but some proficiency in preemptive action pointy-stick diplomacy does help to soften them a bit.

 

[walletta]

The Zulu are one of the most aggressive civs in the game, so yeah, you have to be ready for a fight if you have them as a neighbor, but some proficiency in preemptive action pointy-stick diplomacy does help to soften them a bit.

If that means constructing alliances against them, the problem is they become bumptious before the other Civs have ships to launch against them. Maybe it would be smarter to ally with them in a pointless war against an unreachable third party? Like when Hitler declared war on the US.