Bigger world sizes...Ok, how?

[ShroudedMist]

You can definitely go above 10k total tiles. I build and run maps that are 125+ x 125 frequently. The issue with such massive maps really becomes one of unit movement rates. When a map is 125 tiles across, think about how long a unit with a 1move/turn capability takes to cover distances.

 

[Feet]

125 turns? ¬_¬

 

[Adam7Eight]

You probably have introduced Python errors in your editing. The syntax has to be exact.

In your config file, enable Python error messages. (You should do this for -any- kind of modding -- it would have told you where and why you were getting those "all land" maps, for instance.)

You are simply not going to affect map sizes on scripts (like Pangaea) that use custom grids via XML editing. One way or another, you have to touch Python to make those do different map sizes.

I recommend "Learning Python" by Lutz and Ascher as a textbook -- everything you need to know about Python programming to do about anything you want in Civ4.


- Sirian

It is exact... it has to be. How do I know that? Because I followed your instructions- the Pangaea map- I just copied the existing .py file, renamed it, and threw in a couple of new numbers for the Huge map, selected it in "Custom Game" options, just as you had described earlier and it still crashes at least 4 out of every 5 times.

I have touched no other .py files (other than the seperate ones for other map styles) and am using all default XML files at the moment. I get zero Python error messeges after enabling it.

 

[Fenryial]

THe only thing I did change with the Python editor in (only) Pangea map was the HUGE map to 52,32 from 32,16. That was the only data I chaged. And only to that map and I put the file in the custom directory. But mine doesnt crash 80% but maybe 15 to 20% of the time. Should I still keep them at that 1.6 ratio?

Fenryial

 

[Adam7Eight]

Ok, so I finally got a Pangaea map to load. Then I entered Worldbuilder and saw this...



Any explanation as to why almost half of this "Pangaea" map is tiny islands?

 

[Sirian]

There's a pangaea in the middle of that.

Pulling tiny islands on both sides is rare but possible. There aren't supposed to be that many, but there AREN'T that many on the normal map sizes.

I did warn you that some things won't translate perfectly to larger and larger maps. The only thing you can do is to keep modding until you are satisfied.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

It is exact... it has to be. How do I know that? Because I followed your instructions- the Pangaea map- I just copied the existing .py file, renamed it, and threw in a couple of new numbers for the Huge map, selected it in "Custom Game" options, just as you had described earlier and it still crashes at least 4 out of every 5 times.

I have touched no other .py files (other than the seperate ones for other map styles) and am using all default XML files at the moment. I get zero Python error messeges after enabling it.

Well then there may be a ceiling, past which your machine will crash. I don't know. Some players are running maps even bigger than that with success, so I have no idea why yours would crash. I've tried to help point you in the right direction, but if you want to mod, you have to figure out most of this on your own, especially when you are venturing in to areas I haven't explored.


- Sirian

 

[Fenryial]

I do also get some islands kind of like that. I dont have a pic to show you but I do. If I want them to be in one I just use the world builder to link them. But its not a big deal. I just did 10 maps (52,32) and out of 10 it crashed 2x. It never crashes while making the maps only when loading after I saved them. But still like and average of 10% to 20% of the time. I have 2 gigs of ram so I am not sure what causes the crash.

Fenryial

 

[Adam7Eight]

There's a pangaea in the middle of that.

Pulling tiny islands on both sides is rare but possible. There aren't supposed to be that many, but there AREN'T that many on the normal map sizes.

I did warn you that some things won't translate perfectly to larger and larger maps. The only thing you can do is to keep modding until you are satisfied.


- Sirian

That's the first time I've seen a map that messed up. I do expect some oddities here and there and I have from the beginning. As long as they don't show up like that on a regular basis I'll be happy.

Well then there may be a ceiling, past which your machine will crash. I don't know. Some players are running maps even bigger than that with success, so I have no idea why yours would crash. I've tried to help point you in the right direction, but if you want to mod, you have to figure out most of this on your own, especially when you are venturing in to areas I haven't explored.

I've also run larger maps with a lot of success, but that's before I started taking your advice and changing values in the .py files.

Seriously though, I appreciate the insight. At least I'm learning something here.

I'll just keep playing around with values and see what happens.

 

[HPR]

Well then there may be a ceiling, past which your machine will crash. I don't know. Some players are running maps even bigger than that with success, so I have no idea why yours would crash. I've tried to help point you in the right direction, but if you want to mod, you have to figure out most of this on your own, especially when you are venturing in to areas I haven't explored.


- Sirian

Actually i think the problem is that maps bigger then 53x33(grids) requires about 2gb of ram. and if you dont have enough(more ram) then it crashes. it doesnt seem to like swap memory much. So basicly the limit is in the game(it requires extreme amount of resources for something that civ3 didnt require much resourcers for). I guess in 4-5yrs we can also play aprox 365x365(tiles) maps in civ4(like we could in civ3 through the civ3 editor)


Ive seen that sooome say they have 100x80 or similiar grids set in their xmlfiles. but from what ive discovered it seems like they have just started a game with maptypes that doesnt use that xmlfile for mapsizes(which isnt effected by that setting in the xml). so i would assume that the few others that "socalled have made it far beyond 53x33" ,that i havent spoken with, also have played on maps that doesnt used the edited gridsizes from xml.

However ive come across ALOT of users that have been sucessfull UPTO about 53x33, beyond that everyone have had crashes as far as ive know.
but maybe someone have 3-4gb of ram, and can test it (i can almost bet some money that 99% of ppl that have 2gb of ram wont get far beyond 53x33 or equal sizes).

 

[Sirian]

That's the first time I've seen a map that messed up. I do expect some oddities here and there and I have from the beginning. As long as they don't show up like that on a regular basis I'll be happy.

If you never want to see a tiny island, you have to avoid the Natural and Pressed shorelines. Only Solid shoreline will avoid ever producing regions of tiny islands.

- Sirian

 

[Fenryial]

If you never want to see a tiny island, you have to avoid the Natural and Pressed shorelines. Only Solid shoreline will avoid ever producing regions of tiny islands.

- Sirian

You learn something new everyday! Thanks

Fenryial

I will try this, I didnt know. And I have only tried max with a (52x32) map. hehe not (53x33) or higher. Like I say I have 2 gigs and not many crashes with that. It just takes FOREVER to change land type and such in the WB.

Thanks again

 

[ShroudedMist]

I already posted this in the Europe Map, Please thread but here is an example of a Europe map which is 125x116. 52x33 definitely shouldn't be the size your game is maxing out at.

 

[HPR]

can you please either add the map in your post, or even better add a link to the thread so i can find it easier? i dont like rumors, so would be nice to have the full picture.(ALOT of users reach the limit just a litle over 50x30).
and remember that the default 32x26 grids(is actually 128x104 tiles).
It would actually surprise me if someone have made a map larger then about 53x33(which is about 212x132 tiles) and it actually works!(and even more weird that people havent reacted to it (almost) always crashes).

But if someone have made it past that problemarea then very fine, if just someone can find out WHY (it would be nice for everyone(else) to get even larger maps also

 

[HPR]

But there are more ways to make maps.(if i dont remember wrong you can make a map from a bitmap file). so for all we know the problem could be in the "generating" maps when you try to start a game(which is larger then XXxXX).

ppl need to give more fedback on what works or not(before one can find out 100% where the problems lay).

 

[ShroudedMist]

My bad forgetting the difference between grids and tiles.

 

[HPR]

yes i tried to go through all the custom maps thread subfolder at this forum. only found those small maps.(yes i do consider such maps small!:/

feel like civ4 is a giant step backward and not forward. as a strategygame player, fancy/nice 3d is about the last thing on my list of "wanted features".
for each civ i only wish for the maps to be bigger, more civs, better ai,etc.
3d doesnt just waste resources, it actually made this game even more limited then civ3. and thats sad. but maybe we can have just as big maps,etc in civ4 as in civ3 in about 3-5yrs
(since 2gb ram,3ghz+ intel cpu,geforce 6800 ultra just doesnt cut it for this game, while a cheap internal graphic card,512mb memory,2ghz cpu was more then strong enough for 5!x bigger maps in civ3 then civ4).

 

[ShroudedMist]

Well 3D is a feature wanted by quite a few people. It's simply the nature of the marketplace to expect new games to be in 3D. Computers continue to get faster, bigger video cards, hd etc. It seems logical for them to give the consumer something with new and exciting eye candy.

 

[Alathan]

*Each grid cell consists of 4 tiles (plots), so a 32x20 map grid is actually 128x80 plots.
...
As mentioned earlier, cach grid cell consists of 4 tiles (plots), and I recommend keeping the ratio to or around 1:6.

Wait a minute, I'm confused... do you mean that each grid is 4 plots (in a 2x2 arrangement) or 16 plots (in a 4x4 arrangement)?

 

[HPR]

Actually i disagree. Turnbased strategy game market is the WRONG market for 3d. yes 3d can be "cool", but most turnbased strategy gamers dont want 3d if its sacrifices everything else. (there has been more then one survey about this topic, and it usually always says the same). 3d is NOT the main focus on turnbased strategy game market. 3d is the focus on MAINstream market. so the question is: did they want to launch this game more into mainstream or to satisfy the turnbased strategy market. the product speaks for itself.
3d is all good, as long as it doesnt downgrade the game 3-5 years back in time. civ4 isnt the first turnbased strategygame that added 3d, and failed. there are other turnbased strategygames aswell that added 3d and made the game so extremly hungry for resources that it lost alot of players.

turnbased strategy games in itself(without 3d) is a type of game where you can NEVER get enough memory or cpu. there doesnt exist enough memory or cpupower in a modern pc to be able to get a REAL notch game. and it wont for maaaaany years. so instead of wasting resources on 3d, they should give those few resources to better ai, bigger maps, etc.

well well... maybe i should make my own civ game i guess its the only way... i would have liked features as take use of multiple cpu`s, take use of cluster networks/home networks(to reduce the resourcehog on main computer- nice option to have etc
(and not load the whole map into memory, it is not 100% necesary. it is almost like a fps game would want to load up the complete map all at once).

its actually kinda scary that i found over 70 bugs&abnormalties in the first 5 hours that i played civ4. ok most were minor bugs, but still that is alot imo. (but the game works, and in some years one can take advantage that most things arent hardcoded in civ4 compared to civ3 now they are just even more "limited" by the use of extreme hardware requirements instead.