Birth of England (410-1000AD) Development Thread

[Mattastic]

I'm finally at the stage where I feel confident attempting my own scenario! In this case, one featuring the history of England and the nations that influenced her throughout the early middle ages.

The aim of this project is not so much to provide an accurate depiction of the period, as to provide a standard Civ game within this period and geographic area, featuring the eventual evolution of an English country.

This mod is currently in its early planning stage. However, I've been in the modding business long enough to know more or less what can and can't be done now. I can certainly handle mapping and civilization creation, but I will need help with unit and building creation, python, ideas, and things like that.

Spoiler Map :

This mod features a map of northern Europe centred around the North Sea, giving the British Isles significant focus, and allowing room for all of the civilizations that influenced Britain during this period, in France, the Netherlands and Scandinavia.

Here's a pixellated rendition of the map so far (WIP). The darkest squares represent peaks, and the medium darkness squares represent hills. The two dark lines in Scotland represent Hadrian's Wall and the Antonine Wall, represented in-game by the Great Wall wonder, belonging to a now-deceased Roman civ.

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Mind you, this is a big map, weighing in at 128x128 tiles. Currently it loads on my PC in just under two minutes, and that's without the rivers being finished, or terrains other than grasslands, or any placed cities, roads or improvements. I'm very tempted to cut it down at least to 106x106 (the complete height of the British Isles from the Isles of Scilly to Shetland), which will still leave just enough space for the Danes, Norwegians, Normans and Saxons, and maybe give them more provication to attempt invasion.

Spoiler Civilizations :

Definite playable civs include the Anglo-Saxon heptarchy:

The Kingdom of Northumbria, Oswold
The Kingdom of Mercia, Offa
The Kingdom of the East Angles (East Anglia), Edmund the Martyr
The Kingdom of Essex, Sæbbi
The Kingdom of Kent, Æthelberht
The Kingdom of Wessex, Alfred the Great
The Kingdom of Sussex, Cissa

These civs will all start in the traditional manner of having a single settler and another unit, left to re-populate the recently abandoned land that will one day become England.

Other definite civs (which may or may not be playable) include:

The Kingdom of Strathclyde, Riderch I of Alt Clut
The Kingdom of Gwynedd, Rhodri the Great
The Kingdom of Cornwall, Mark
[and at least one Irish kingdom]
The Duchy of Normandy, William the Bastard
The Duchy of Saxony, [no leader yet]
The Kingdom of Norway, [no leader yet]
The Kingdom of the Danes (Denmark), Cnut the Great

Leaders do not yet have defined traits.

Ultimately they cover at least three (maybe four) main civ groups: Angles, Celts, and Germanics/Norsemen. There will also be at least two barbiarian "civs", featuring Irish pirates and Viking raiders.

As mentioned previously, Rome will also exist as a dead civ, if only so that certain landmarks can be left on the map, such as the aforemented walls, and Roman Roads, which will have the effect of railways, and will be unbuildable by any other civ.

It's my hope that this civ will also contain the following:

• A new tech tree spanning at least two periods: Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages.
• Era appropriate civics.
• A healthy range of units, buildings and wonders.
• New religions.
• Maybe even a few historical events.
• A "unify England" victory condition.

 

[Ninja2]

Very interesting! I'll be looking at how you progress. Good luck!

 

[Ajidica]

Sounds interesting. A bit of a historical problem though, when the Roman Emperor Honorius pulled what remained of the Roman troops out of Britain in 410 the Saxons didn't just appear.(There actualy weren't many left, most had been defeated by one of Honorius's Generals when the usurper Constantine III revolted and invaded Gaul.) The Romano-British lingered on for a while (I don't recal until when, but 530's IIRC) until they were forced into Wales where they were called Welsh by the Saxons. (Welsh means outcast or exile in Saxon) The Saxons fought amonst each other and against the Jutes, the Frisians, and eventualy absorbed the Angle culture. THen came the Vikings and so on.

Basicly what I'm trying to say is that Roman Culture in Britian didn't just dissapear with the Romans pulling out, but the Saxons/Jutes/Angles/Frisians/a couple more I'm forgetting eventualy conquered and absorbed some of their traditions while mainly forcing them into Wales and Cornwall/Brittany. So their should be a 'King Arthur' civ as the Romano-British. (I mean real King ARthur, nor the the middle ages version of Chivalry and so on.) Also, a Pictish civ in the north of Scotland would be nice as Strathclyde was not that far north. If you want any help, I can help with historical accuracy and such. I have a book on the Roman possesion of England and the Warhammer source book for Dark age conflicts in Britain.

Lastly, I would reccomend the end date being pushed back to late 1066 (October 16th) when the Normans won at Hastings and created the Angeivian Empire which is in essence modern England.

EDIT: If you have the game Rome Total War: Barbarian Invaision, I would reccomend checking out the Viking Invaision II mod and Arthurian Total War mod.

 

[Mattastic]

Ajidica, I certainly appreciate any historical aid I can get. To be fair, I'd entirely forgotten the actual history of post-Roman Britain in my eagerness to outline the mod. Do you think a later start-date would be more appropriate then? In what year would you consider the Romano-British civilization to be pretty much over?

A Pictish civ would be good, but the highlands might not be very forgiving towards them. In game terms, a lot of it's tundra, and most of Britain's mountains are there. The question is, would that civ be able to grow powerful enough to be in any way influential to the English civs during the game, especially given their geographical remoteness?

And I did think about making the end date 1066. I just wasn't sure it it was too dependant on real history to be appropriate. But I guess 1000 may be a bit arbitrary.

 

[Ajidica]

start date>I think possibly pushing the start date to a later date but still in the 400's would work, I'll have to check if theres any other dates that would be better.
Picts>To make them competative give them cheap units and a special building that adds production and commerce to the cities to show although the cities aren't very big they still have a fair population. Besides, the northern welsh (strathclyde) need something to fight against besides Saxon shieldwalls.
End date> It might actualy be better to push the date past 1066 because William didn't just become king of England when he won. I'll have to find out when he was coronated.

How many turns are you expecting the mod to be?
EDIT: I've been refreshing my knowledge of Late Antiquity Britian, and apparently a warlord named Vortigern right around when the mod starts, (he came after a guy called Constans who was appointed by the usurper in Gaul, Constantine III) allegedly brought the Saxons (and the Jutes, Angles. The frisians didn't do much.) over to help him fight the Picts/Irish and the Saxons later turned on him. Its not known if he actualy existed, but according to some scholars 100-200 years later, he was succeded by Ambrosius Aurelianus, who was suceeded by Uther Pendragon, who was suceeded by Arthur. After Arthur another Constantine became king, but after that everything went to hell in Britain, this was prox 540's. I saw a show a while ago that suggested that the reason the Romano-British fell so fast then is that they were still trading with the Eastern Roman Empire, and since they got a plauge around then, it spread to the Romano-British.


I feel the mod will be heavily dictated (more so than others) by what the start date is.

 

[The_J]

A Pictish civ would be good, but the highlands might not be very forgiving towards them. In game terms, a lot of it's tundra, and most of Britain's mountains are there. The question is, would that civ be able to grow powerful enough to be in any way influential to the English civs during the game, especially given their geographical remoteness?

You could give them a special unit for a worker, which can build a special improvement, highland farms, or something like that, which produces more than the normal improvements.

 

[Agent327]

Very interesting! I'll be looking at how you progress. Good luck!

I'll be very curious to see how this turns out.

 

[Mattastic]

Adjica, you're certainly right that the start date will define the tone of the mod, especially if we're heading into the territory of Authorian history. If I recall, all the leaders I checked were from well after 540. I think they generally range from the 8th century to the 11th. I'm happy to push the date back enough so that the days of Arthur are (at best) a recently lost golden age of stability. I'm sure regardless of that, it will be possible to fit in enough turns to make the game worthwhile.

Oh yeah, and as for William I, he was coronated on Christmas Day in 1066. Whether that meant he had actual control over his newly conquered lands is another matter (according to Wikipedia, the north succumbed in 1072), but he was officially king before the end of that year.

The_J, I like your special worker idea. Although, perhaps a unique building that increases farm yeild might be easier to impliment?

Oh, does anyone know what the denonyms are for Essex, Wessex and Sussex, Strathclyde and Gwynedd are? What's the adjective form?

 

[The_J]

Wessexian, essexian, sussexian......no idea, sounds a bit stupid.

The_J, I like your special worker idea. Although, perhaps a unique building that increases farm yeild might be easier to impliment?

Buildings can't affect the yield (iirc), but you can create a special technology, wich has the effect and can't be researched, and give it to the civ as a starting technology.

 

[Ajidica]

Adjectives: I think that Wessex and such are adjectives that have been turned into names. Originaly Wessex was West Seaxe. Sussex was Suth Seaxe, and so on.

Start Date: The date has to be later than the death of Vortigern (mid 400's IIRC) because the Saxons overthrew him and went to war with the Romano-Brits.

 

[Mattastic]

Hmmm. I dunno, The_J. I'd rather have the special improvement than a special technology. Although if I recall, buildings CAN improve the yeild of terrain types, like the harbour and so forth... Maybe the same can be done with tundra, so it's effectively the same as grassland to Pictish cities.

Wessaxon, Essaxon and Wessaxon might be appropriate, in that case.

I think part of the issue with the start and end date is that I'm not really planning to put in date-appropriate emergance of civilizations, but to simply find a comfortable period in which all the named civs existed at some point. If the Romano-Britons existed outside of Wales at the time the scenario starts, I for one am fine with that. After all, the scenario does already take liberties in the name of gameplay, in that the Anglo-Saxon civs will start with one city in a largely untouched landscape, whereas in reality they would have been moving into already well-populated land. It was, in real life, after all, only the British culture that they were pushing into Wales. The majority of the population stayed where it was. Given that, how accurate does the start date have to be?

 

[MikeJep]

OMG,

Looks awesome. I love reading the Saxon warlord series by Bernard Cornwell which feature this time period.

I secretly always wanted to make a mod of this time period then expand it into the war of the roses. Some what based off of the board game King Maker.

I hope you stick with it.
I'm I huge noob when it comes to modding Civ but if you want, I wouldn't mind helping a bit.

 

[The_J]

Hmmm. I dunno, The_J. I'd rather have the special improvement than a special technology. Although if I recall, buildings CAN improve the yeild of terrain types, like the harbour and so forth... Maybe the same can be done with tundra, so it's effectively the same as grassland to Pictish cities.

damn, you're right, totally forgot that.

 

[Ninja2]

I'm extremely tempted to begin to convince you to make a proper scenario - with all cities in place, no razing, no settlers. Begin 410 A.D., end 1066 A.D. Roman roads in place (great idea, that!), workers can develop the land, build monasteries and churches (on the map, not in the cities) for piety, etc. Man, I have a ton of ideas for this!

Here's a suggestion for number of turns and a scenario structure:

Spoiler :

• 410 A.D. to 600 A.D.: 2 years per turn, 95 turns in all. This is the most difficult period historically, because it deals with both the migration of the Romano-British from England to Wales/Cornwall/Brittany, the Pictish and Celtic invasions and the Anglo-Saxon internal feuding/civil war. Very tricky in CIV terms. Best way to get through this, IMHO, would be to have the starting seven in a difficult position versus the British (i.e. Picts and Celts) invaders, so you basically have to scramble to build your defenses.
  
  
• 601 A.D. to 800 A.D.: 2 years per turn, 100 turns in all. This phase should be the build and consolidation phase of the seven main civs. Historically, Christianity spread in Britain, and this should be a goal achievable in this timeframe in the game as well. Continued raiding and fighting with the Picts and Celts.
  
  
• 801 A.D. to 900 A.D.: 1 year per turn, 100 turns in all. Massive Viking invasions in this period. Historically, the Danelaw was founded in this period by Viking settlers (taking over lands previously owned by East Anglia, Essex and Mercia). So the Vikings should be strong enough to capture quite a few cities.
  
  
• 901 A.D. to 1066 A.D.: 1 year per turn, 166 turns in all. Kick out the Vikings, and unify England! Either by vassalising the other English rulers (Wessex did this historically), or eliminating them outright.

All in all, that's 462 turns, which I think is a reasonable game length. If using 5,4,2 and 1 year/turn respectively for each period, the scenario could be shortened to 305 turns.

 

[Mattastic]

MikeJep, I'll accept all and any help I can get with this. And if you're well read about the period, then ideas and historical knowledge would be really helpful too.

Ninja2, a complete scenario isn't entirely beyond what I'm willing to do. Truth be told though, I haven't played a whole lot of scenarios though, so I don't have many ideas for how to deal with certain issues: how far could historical accuracy be pushed to ensure that all civs have a fair start? Are there enough settlements in Britain during this period to class as "cities"? What would happen to the scenario if the Romano-Britons survived a Saxon invasion? How would later kingdoms assert themselves? These questions and others need to be answered first.

I love the idea of churches as an improvement. If you can think of some ideas of how that would work, that would be awesome. I'd love to hear some other ideas.

Wow, this seems to be really going somewhere.

 

[Ninja2]

Just edited the above post.

Churches, but probably most importantly, monateries, can be made to be improvements on map. There is already a modcomponent that limits hos close certain improvements can be built to an identical improvement. I already see this is going to be a full-blown (forgive my enthusiasm) SDK mod.

In game terms, I think you should just say that the Romano-British became the Welsh, and the Anglo-Saxons are already established somewhat. I.e., the A-S invasion already happened when the scenario begins.

Balance between the kingdoms will of course be difficult. That's what beta testers are for!

 

[Mattastic]

Right, after a few days of messing about with the map, I've given up temporarily and decided to read up some history. Particularly, I've found this website, which has some nice accessable timelines for various regions, and some decent maps.

As to the timeline, I thought I would re-create a colour coded timeline here to show events relevent to the scenario, and see if we can't simplify the emergance of civilizations a bit.

Spoiler Timeline :

Civilization events are marked in blue. Potential technology events are marked in yellow. Religious events are marked in green.

• 450 - Anglo-Saxons begin settling Britain.
• 476 - Sussex founded.
• 495 - Wessex founded.
• 519 - Winchester becomes capital of Wessex.
  
• 550 - Essex founded.
• 571 - Mercia founded.
• 597 - Christianity begins to spread in Kent.
• 600 - First coins minted.
• 601 - Canterbury becomes the holy city of English Christianity.
• 603 - Northumbria founded.
• 630 - Christianity becomes the official religoin of Wessex.
• 635 - Monastaries founded in Northumbria.
• 687 - The Isle of Wight becomes Christian, completing the conversion of Britain.
• 793 - Viking raids begin in Northumbria, and increase over the next two centuries.

There are also lots and lots of lists of battles and invasions, but really, since those are unlikely to be accurately reflected in game, I'm not going to bother listing them. Please feel free to suggest additions to this timeline, or discuss how these events should be shown in game.

One thought on religion is that, in game, I find civs tend to be absurdly reluctant to adopt a new religion. I have never seen an AI civ adopt Christianity or Islam, because by then Buddhism and Hinduism dominate the entire world. There will have to be some means for Christianity to gain the upper hand against Paganism.

One early idea I have for that would require some coding, of course. I was thinking that cities could have a religion percentage slider, in the same way they have sliders for nationality. So a city might be 65% Pagan, 35% Christian. As settlements become increasingly Christian, it becomes increasingly difficult for a civ to stick with its original faith because the benefits also decrease.

I still don't know how this would relate to missionary and temple costs, mind you. But so far, how does the idea sound?

 

[Ajidica]

For the Paganism/Christianity thing, (you might also want to split Christianity into Roman Catholic and Celtic Christianity), just give christianity a high spread rate and when X cities in an empire including the capital have converted, the civ will auto convert.