Brave new world Ai too peaceful.

AI loooves to taunt. Too bad you can't do that too. :( I especially love when AI starts taunting me that my culture is terrible, while my culture is dominant over his. :lol:

Let's face it, how many of us wanted to tell Alex to go ride a donkey? :lol:

Yep, I've often desired to just fling insults at the AI (wasted, I know, but it'd make me feel better). Or rephrase some of the options I can select (like "You'll pay for this in time" to something a little more annoyed).

As for Alex, I'd rather suggest an activity other than riding he can do with a donkey...
 
Clearly he has not met Shaka

Hehe, you're right I've been lucky enough to not have him as an immediate neighbor very often. Actually only once, but I was Bismarck and I had my own carpet to counter his with.

Still, that's an exception to the rule. 90% of the time there isn't much of a threat from nearby neighbors. In Vanilla emperor was kind of tough but it's a breeze now. I know my gameplay has gotten better but I don't think it's that much better.
 
Constant warring, no - however even though the name was coined for the even more combat-focused Master of Orion, two of the xs in 4x (eXterminate and eXpand) entail aggression. You should not be able to play wholly peaceful games - it's one of a number of areas where, while BNW improved the game mechanically, Civ V was closer to the optimum balance (peace vs. war, tall vs. wide) in G&K, and BNW generally went too far in the other direction.

I couldn't agree more. The reason why I'm ranting is that BNW, while bringing in many nice improvements, also regressed on some areas. AI aggressiveness and tall vs wide being those that immediately come to my mind.
The denunciation system doesn't work as it did earlier, as somebody else pointed out.

Still, that's an exception to the rule. 90% of the time there isn't much of a threat from nearby neighbors. In Vanilla emperor was kind of tough but it's a breeze now. I know my gameplay has gotten better but I don't think it's that much better.

My exact feeling.
 
Just depends on which leader you spawn. If you spawn next to august ceaser expect a backstab. While portugal just wants to trade
 
I'd rather the AI use it's enormous economic advantages to pursue victory instead trying to end the game by destroying the human player every single game
 
I couldn't agree more. The reason why I'm ranting is that BNW, while bringing in many nice improvements, also regressed on some areas. AI aggressiveness and tall vs wide being those that immediately come to my mind.
The denunciation system doesn't work as it did earlier, as somebody else pointed out.

Actually, I think that was me too...
 
After that i have played 3 games 2 on emperor and 1 immortal all games past 200 turns i am not getting dow from other civilization.

Keep playing Immortal, it can vary but DOW's aren't super-rare on Immortal.

You mentioned that the game lets you take tradition and never have an AI threat. This is true - just expand a bit more. The AI likes you less and you tend to have weak spots since your army is spread more. Makes for a much more threatening game, so you should be able to get some DOWs without the absolutely pointless exercise of "declaring war yourself just because BNW fails to make other civs care about conquering you at all to the delight of the science victory speedrun lovers" as was suggested.
 
Want angry AIs?

Take a capital while ignoring diplomacy completely in first 200 turns of the game or earlier, if you can get extreme warmonger penalty if you take the capital, go for it and then enjoy the paradise of eternal wars.

AIs will literally attack you the moment you declare war on someone for lols.
 
I feel the AI is maybe a tad too passive, but generally I end up being declared war on in most of my games. I have found more aggressiveness since the patch. I don't know if the likelihood of DOW from AI has been increased with said patch but that is what I seem to have experienced. Someone on these forums will know if that is indeed the case. The problem before BNW was you always knew whichever civ was near you would attack before very long, every time. This didn't seem totally realistic to me, and it became annoying being bogged down with endless wars. In my opinion the war aspect needed taming a bit before BNW came out, and this they did. Basically adding Shaka, Monty and Genghis will certainly spice up the game a good deal. I usually manage to annoy civs anyway, as I love to play wide, resulting in bad relations as I eat up their land.
 
Civ is not a wargame. ..... and it wound up being one in prior versions, but it was never intended to be that way.

Hi Sid, good to see you on the forums telling us what you intended all along. I love your games. Xcom is outstanding, that Jake dude is the real biz. And Ew just took it to another dimension.

You're not Sid? ...Oh. Sorry. You know what he intended with the game though. Which is good. It's always good when someone knows what a stranger is/was thinking and can inform everyone else. I was under the impression that domination victory had been an option since the first incarnation - but I guess I was wrong there. Or perhaps it was there, but the Ai gave you their capitals if you asked nicely and gave them flowers? More of a diplomatic type of game, I guess? So thanks for that. I'm better informed now. Please keep up the good work.

@OP. BNW is more peaceful than the other iterations. Whether it's TOO peaceful depends on how you like to play. Warring used to be easier. That they've made it harder is more of a challenge.

Personally I find the peaceful game too easy. I can win at immortal with my eyes closed playing tall and small not DOWing anyone and hitting next turn...which people used to complain about regards the culture vic. It used to be that even playing tall was a challenge due to the defensive wars you inevitably were thrown into. Not so much now.

For me it's kind of gone too extreme in both directions. Tall tradition is much more peaceful and for me more too boring. Going wide always involves aggression (although, it always did)...but it's just gotten way harder with the penalties. IMV harder is not a bad thing. But, sometimes I find myself just DOwing just to create some interest in the game cos I'm bored.

I agree that peaceful builders should have the option to play that way. On the other hand, I feel that the warmonger penalties are dialed a little too high for the more aggressive players amongst us. We've got a bunch of civs with excellent units built primarily for early wars...yet the only time you can start to get away with war diplomatically is after ideologies.

I think it's a truly hard one to balance. i like the fact that so much is contributing to diplo reactions but I still feel that they need to fiddle with the positive diplo points you can get early game and make it easier to get a couple of civs to still be friends if you go for a war with a neighbour. I mean, right now, it's kind of ridiculous, your neighbour DOW's you. You beat him back and take a couple of his cities and your other neighbours give YOU the warmonger penalty. True, it's possible to make a pact with a neighbour and attack a third. So there is alot that is good and works with the current system. But I still think the balance of the penalties is wrong.
 
Hi Sid, good to see you on the forums telling us what you intended all along. I love your games. Xcom is outstanding, that Jake dude is the real biz. And Ew just took it to another dimension.

You're not Sid? ...Oh. Sorry. You know what he intended with the game though. Which is good. It's always good when someone knows what a stranger is/was thinking and can inform everyone else. So thanks for that.

I am an academic so I do research on topics that I analyze (e.g., Civilization and other games). Sid Meier has explained what I posted in many interviews. Go watch some or read some and learn rather than adopting a smart attitude that attempts to deny what the creator of the game has stated.

To reiterate, Civ was never intended to be a war game. It was (and is) intended to be a game where you create rather than destroy. Sid literally said that the inspiration for creating Civ I was to make a game that allowed players to create rather than destroy because all the games he saw at that time were designed to destroy things via combat of various types. He has been asked the question about what inspired him to create Civ originally many times, of course. It's a standard question.

Re: 4x and eXpansion... no, expansion does NOT mean aggression. It means "expansion" and nothing more. Expansion means that you will discover new things and experience new environments, including possibly meeting new people. This has nothing whatsoever to do with aggression. You could be a completely peaceful village and you'd still expand due to births of new babies (barring some sort of major outbreak that kills off a lot of people, but that would be temporary and new births are constant... unless complete genocide occurred, of course).

If people want a wargame, there are plenty out there. This is a similar problem with so-called "real time strategy" games... "real time" and "strategy" don't really go together in the same sentence, let alone as a game genre. Official chess matches have a specific set time but are not speed chess (i.e., real time) and chess is one of the oldest, well established strategy games.

This same problem occurs with modern role playing games where "role playing" has taken a back seat to "real time action" or even been eliminated entirely except for marketing. Role playing requires outcomes to be based on a character's abilities, not the player's, something that makes or breaks any actor who auditions, just as one example. People who want outcomes to be based on their own skills in a role playing game are playing the wrong kind of game, that's all, but they often do not even realize it, and the modern games of the past decade or so have been changed for that approach rather than maintained as an actual role playing experience.

The same problem also occurs with "puzzle mini-games" being included in role playing games. They have no place there, at least not as far as outcomes being determined by players solving the puzzles. If a mechanic allows the character to solve them based on character abilities, that's fine because it's role playing.

It's all rather silly because it actually undermines variety in the industry. Everything becomes real time action (or turn based combat where any other strategic approach is neglected or undermined by the game mechanics). Civ has enough problems with combat being the best approach to any situation. There is absolutely no need to exacerbate the problem any further than it already is. As I said, there are plenty of combat game alternatives out there. Focusing on combat has if it is they key element of history is a big problem even in college history courses, and even for academics who know that such a focus biases learning about history.
 
Play with mods More War and Expansionism.

Congratulations, your problems are solved. The end.

:p
 
Yep, I've often desired to just fling insults at the AI (wasted, I know, but it'd make me feel better). Or rephrase some of the options I can select (like "You'll pay for this in time" to something a little more annoyed).

As for Alex, I'd rather suggest an activity other than riding he can do with a donkey...

Well, I can't get very creative because of forum censorship. :lol: but I would love option of taunting AI that you stole his favorite CS... just for lulz to annoy Alex and Rammy. :lol:

Oh, and I've seen CIV Diplomatic Features added option to ask AI to move his units away from your boarders (or declare war on you). Too bad this was never officially added, so you can mess around with AI's "50 turn preparation to declare war on you", kinda like he can caught you unprepared sometimes. :D

Too bad mod above mess up the game with latest patch. :( Hope there will be an update soon. :)
 
Actually, it was originally intended that way. It evolved into more of a management game as time went on, but Civ 1 was essentially a wargame.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. The Civ series from the beginning had the Spaceship victory - that basically worked like it still does today. It had government types like Republic or Democrazy that actually forced you to keep peace by a senate that could veto war declarations and it had wonders like the Great Wall or the UN that forced your opponents to make and keep peace. So it was always possible (and intended by the game designer) to play a perfectly peaceful game in any of the Civ titles.
 
Hi Sid, good to see you on the forums telling us what you intended all along. I love your games. Xcom is outstanding, that Jake dude is the real biz. And Ew just took it to another dimension.

You're not Sid? ...Oh. Sorry. You know what he intended with the game though. Which is good. It's always good when someone knows what a stranger is/was thinking and can inform everyone else. I was under the impression that domination victory had been an option since the first incarnation - but I guess I was wrong there. Or perhaps it was there, but the Ai gave you their capitals if you asked nicely and gave them flowers?

What's more, domination in Civ I wasn't the watered-down version that's applied in subsequent iterations: the condition was to eliminate all other civs, completely.

I agree that peaceful builders should have the option to play that way. On the other hand, I feel that the warmonger penalties are dialed a little too high for the more aggressive players amongst us. We've got a bunch of civs with excellent units built primarily for early wars...yet the only time you can start to get away with war diplomatically is after ideologies.

I don't think it's that extreme. In my Hun game I took Cape Town twice, suffering the penalty both times as well as the declare war penalty, and it resulted merely in denunciations. Persia did subsequently go to war, but I think "coveting lands I currently own" (Cape Town) either in isolation or in combination with the penalty was what decided that.

The intent seems to be that taking targeted cities strategically is generally fine - a single 'Extreme' penalty won't be fatal and it does wear off. However, it seems that even if a penalty wears off in the sense that it disappears, if you do anything to incur a warmonger penalty again it will take you to the next 'level' of warmongering in the eyes of the rest of the world.

It really is pretty crippling for civs designed for early domination, and even the AI seems to realise it. I've been starting and not finishing a lot of games recently and just started a Denmark one in which Attila is playing entirely peacefully and is currently score and tech leader.
 
I agree, Civ probably didn't start as a war game. With the introduction of 1UPT though, the combat is probably my favorite part of the game. I also agree that I wish the AI was more aggressive, because the way things are now you just turtle up and click next turn.
Through a lot of experience I've learned the longer you spend just doing one turn, moving units, using diplomacy, etc.. The more engaging the game is. When I have units just sitting there and I'm trying to blow through techs to get to the end, it can get rather stale.
A well timed DOW by a powerful enemy can bring a new level of intensity, especially if you aren't quite as prepared as you would like to be.
If the lack of AI aggression can be fixed, I would very much like to see it done. They shouldn't just sit there and let you win.
 
Sorry, but that's nonsense. The Civ series from the beginning had the Spaceship victory - that basically worked like it still does today. It had government types like Republic or Democrazy that actually forced you to keep peace by a senate that could veto war declarations and it had wonders like the Great Wall or the UN that forced your opponents to make and keep peace. So it was always possible (and intended by the game designer) to play a perfectly peaceful game in any of the Civ titles.

Republic and Democracy allowed the senate to veto a range of decisions, not just war; the reason the latter sticks in the mind is precisely because of Civ I's military focus - not being able to go to war when you want was a serious strategic limitation.

The Great Wall and UN worked the same way as one another: they forced a civ to offer peace during negotions. To force peace, you have to be at war to begin with, and only one civ can get the benefit of either. You surely aren't seriously suggesting a game isn't a wargame because it has an option to make peace treaties? If so, I'll get right on that claim against Creative Assembly - their Total War name is clearly in breach of the Trades Descriptions Act. Why is forcing peace a good thing in a wargame? Because you may be losing, perhaps? You may have had war declared when you aren't ready, or when you're already at war? These are not the considerations of a peaceful builders' game - there's a reason Civ had the Great Wall and Sim City didn't. Both these Wonders were time-limited and, as above, restricted to a single civ each - the Great Wall became obsolete with Gunpowder, the UN didn't become available until the Industrial Era. Civs could happily declare war on anyone else (and invariably did).

Yes, it had the spaceship victory. No, this wasn't a peaceful alternative to domination - it was the only victory condition available that involved anything less than wiping out every other civ on the map. There is plainly a huge scope for warfare between these two extremes (even combat-focused Master of Orion had as its main victory condition a 'science victory' that, while it did explicitly require combat - you get the best weapons tech, then attack the Guardian of Orion - didn't require you to wipe out any of your competitors).

I don't know if you ever played Civ I or are just theorising, but the game simply wouldn't let you play a fully peaceful game even if you wanted to - the Great Wall and UN were valuable precisely because the AI would go to war with you. You would need to go to war to achieve your own objectives - take out specific rivals (the "peaceful" spaceship victory made explicit provision for destroying a rival's spaceship by capturing their capital), and as in any Civ game grab the land you need to expand. Your argument is akin to looking at the Total War games' victory condition "hold 20 provinces" and thinking "that's nice, maybe I can just ask nicely and the AI will give them to me - nothing in the victory condition says that war is involved" (indeed in Shogun 2 you can take many provinces by bribing them with agents rather than going to war).

Simply as it's designed, the Civ game engine has never allowed for any significant 'sanctions' against rivals that don't involve going to war - if another player is in the lead, what can you do to stop them? You can attack them, or ... no, you can attack them and that's basically it. Since Civ III introduced the idea of strategic resources, you can disrupt enemy plans by going to war and then pillaging and sitting on their resource, or capturing the resource city, but back in Civ I conquest was the only answer. A game designed as a peaceful race to the finish would not feature this kind of design limitation - it would feature more ways to get ahead by building or negotiation, or such features as embargos (not handled well in Civ V, but at least actually there). The AIs certainly weren't programmed with any understanding of alternatives - if they saw you as a threat, they didn't quietly tech rush or trade for valuable technologies, they threw giant stacks at you.

I am an academic so I do research on topics that I analyze (e.g., Civilization and other games).

Sorry, but this is a meaningless comment if your academic specialty has nothing to do with Civ V. I'm a biologist, but that doesn't have any obvious bearing on the topic at hand, and your assertion that Civ was not designed as a wargame was just that - an assertion, without any supporting analysis. If you provide the analysis, then it's of no consequence what your job happens to be - the analysis can be taken on its own merits. An analysis of Civ's intent entails looking at its design features (such as the ratio of military units to non-military buildings), its AI programming, and details of the sort I discussed in my response to gps above.

Sid Meier has explained what I posted in many interviews. Go watch some or read some and learn rather than adopting a smart attitude that attempts to deny what the creator of the game has stated.

Links would be helpful in that regard.

To reiterate, Civ was never intended to be a war game. It was (and is) intended to be a game where you create rather than destroy. Sid literally said that the inspiration for creating Civ I was to make a game that allowed players to create rather than destroy because all the games he saw at that time were designed to destroy things via combat of various types.

Which is a better source of authority, do you suppose - a retrospective comment by the designer or a game that, as designed, has a victory condition that requires total destruction of the rest of the world, detailed military technological progression, and AIs that force warfare of some degree?

Re: 4x and eXpansion... no, expansion does NOT mean aggression. It means "expansion" and nothing more. Expansion means that you will discover new things and experience new environments, including possibly meeting new people.

Not in this context: the 4xes are 'eXplore, eXpand, eXploit and eXterminate'. Discovering new things, new environments, and new civilizations is where the 'eXplore' part comes in. eXpand is much more specifically land grabbing, and not necessarily into unoccupied territory.

If people want a wargame, there are plenty out there. This is a similar problem with so-called "real time strategy" games... "real time" and "strategy" don't really go together in the same sentence, let alone as a game genre. Official chess matches have a specific set time but are not speed chess (i.e., real time) and chess is one of the oldest, well established strategy games.

Ironically given your argument, chess is also fundamentally a wargame - it has nothing to it beyond tactical positioning (a lot of pedants can get very sniffy about describing chess as a strategy rather than a tactical game, particularly in the chess community itself) and "destroying things via combat". The best chess matches will usually feature more of the former than the latter, but it's very unusual to have a 'bloodless' chess game and tactical positioning itself is part of warfare - a wargame isn't all about combat. This may itself have been what Sid was getting at when decrying games that are just about destroying things via combat - most of the intended targets of his comment were probably not wargames (not an especially popular genre on computers in 1991).

This same problem occurs with modern role playing games where "role playing" has taken a back seat to "real time action" or even been eliminated entirely except for marketing. Role playing requires outcomes to be based on a character's abilities, not the player's, something that makes or breaks any actor who auditions, just as one example.

"Role-playing" has rarely been a literally meaningful label in the way it's been applied to games. The name was of course popularised by the tabletop game Dungeons & Dragons, which was pretty much exclusively combat-focused. The idea of a role-playing game where the player has complete freedom to invent the role they play is one oddity: as you say, an actor auditions for a part, which they then interpret within the constraints set by that character, they don't invent a character of their own that lets them do what they are instinctively inclined to do anyway. Computer RPGs that put you in the role of a given character are closer to the spirit of a 'true' RPG than the tabletop genre, but as you say most seem to boil down to real-time combat dictated by player reaction speed. This is not just a modern phenomenon: Baldur's Gate had real-time combat that depended on player reactions as well.

It's all rather silly because it actually undermines variety in the industry. Everything becomes real time action (or turn based combat where any other strategic approach is neglected or undermined by the game mechanics). Civ has enough problems with combat being the best approach to any situation. There is absolutely no need to exacerbate the problem any further than it already is.

I fully agree with this, however Civ has this problem precisely because "combat being the best approach to any situation" is the way the series was designed from its inception.
 
It seems the ai civilization will only attack if you are too weak.i had ottomans and china as my neighbours and suleiman brought many army units near the borders but as soon as i purchased a spearman.he moved the millitary units to attack egypt which had a stronger millitary.the game without war is boring why then produce military units?
 
G+K AI is psychotic, feels like I'm playing a war game, please fix
BNW AI is passive, feels like I'm not playing a war game, please fix
Unpleasable Fanbase

Hi Sid, good to see you on the forums telling us what you intended all along. I love your games. Xcom is outstanding, that Jake dude is the real biz. And Ew just took it to another dimension.

You're not Sid? ...Oh. Sorry. You know what he intended with the game though.

As if the game didn't come in a box with some kind of explanation as to what it is supposed to be? Or as if Firaxis refuses to publicly state whether it is or is not a war game? This is almost certainly an example of Fandumb
 
"Role-playing" has rarely been a literally meaningful label in the way it's been applied to games. The name was of course popularised by the tabletop game Dungeons & Dragons, which was pretty much exclusively combat-focused. The idea of a role-playing game where the player has complete freedom to invent the role they play is one oddity: as you say, an actor auditions for a part, which they then interpret within the constraints set by that character, they don't invent a character of their own that lets them do what they are instinctively inclined to do anyway. Computer RPGs that put you in the role of a given character are closer to the spirit of a 'true' RPG than the tabletop genre, but as you say most seem to boil down to real-time combat dictated by player reaction speed. This is not just a modern phenomenon: Baldur's Gate had real-time combat that depended on player reactions as well.

Off-topic, I know, but I disagree with this point. The limitations of RP in Tabletop games is limited purely by the group involved. Rules are merely for conflict resolution and to define character progress (also a means of conflict resolution, ultimately) and the story progresses as a collaboration between the GM and PCs. Saying D&D was primarily combat-focused is a fairly rigid definition of the game - yes, combat plays a major part in the game but there are rewards (especially in the later editions) for non-combat actions. GURPS is an even better system to show this - the rules for conflict resolution take most of the content but rewards are more abstract as assigned by the GM instead of XP values for every monster; however, character progression is ultimately a tool to allow more conflict resolution in any level/point-based RPG.

MMOs are more rigid (and solo RPGs only slightly less so). There's no GM to encourage or reward RP and the mechanics of the game neither encourage or support it (usually they hinder a player for such actions because through RP a person would make choices that weren't the "optimum" for their class). While RP does exist in MMOs, it is almost entirely through "acting" between other PCs - the way you portray the personality of your character has no impact on the game world or your character.

Claiming computerized RPGs are closer to the spirit than tabletop RPGs is incorrect because RPGs aren't just "auditioning for a role and playing within that role"... RPGs are social games at their core and the single-player RPGs have next to no social interactions (being single player after all). MMOs have more in common with true RPGs than single-player games but still significantly less than tabletop ones.
 
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