Brazilwood Camps vs Plantations on Jungle tiles

[ExpiredReign]

My current game is as Brazil, which means jungle tiles can be made into Brazilwood Camps upon researching Calendar. That tech also allows the building of Plantations on Citrus, amongst other resources. Now since my capital is surrounded by jungle I'm happy that I can build Brazilwood Camps but 2 of the tiles have Citrus which I currently can't build on because I need Iron Working to clear the jungle before building the plantation.

This seems odd to me. The same tech that allows building Brazilwood Camps should, in principle, allow any other improvement on it. Secondly why are Citrus growing on Jungle tiles when according to the pedia they only occur on grassland or plains?

The problem to me seems to be on the necessity to remove the jungle before building the plantation OR the fact the tech to remove it comes too late.

Could we either:

• Move "Remove Jungle" earlier to Bronze Working or even onto Calendar? -- Best option IMHO.
• Remove the necessity to clear the jungle before building plantations?

Further to this, you are not allowed to build Brazilwood Camps on a jungle tile that has a resource on it. This also seems odd.
Plantation with Citrus will give me 1Gold and the resource but a Brazilwood Camp will give me 2Gold and 1, better option in some circumstances. Thus have the Brazilwood camp also connect the resource OR just build regardless and have the resource unconnected if you want.
This happens with a lot of improvements already so it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

[thecraftybee]

I agree, there is only one thing worse than having jungle luxes and that is being surrounded by a sea of marsh sugar which cannot be improved until Machinery, a Tier 2 Mediaeval tech :<.

For the sake of balance, would it be possible to have all Worker actions relating to any luxuries be available from no later than Tier 2 of the Ancient era?

As for your options, I'd much prefer to see Brazilwood camps connect resources. Jungle can be extremely patchy or even rare in some map scripts so in those instances you want every tile to count.

Also, according to the base game and the map scripts I use, Citrus is found in Jungle and Grassland Forest and I imagine it is upto the map scripts to give priority to locations rather than VP.

Lastly, are you the person that runs http://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/Civ5_CBP_Wikia? If so, I have been using it for awhile and it is incredible - thanks very much.

 

[Growth]

Further to this, you are not allowed to build Brazilwood Camps on a jungle tile that has a resource on it.

I don't think you can build Eki or Polders for example on a tile that has a resource on it either, probably consistent with every other unique tile improvements except for GP's.

 

[ExpiredReign]

I agree, there is only one thing worse than having jungle luxes and that is being surrounded by a sea of marsh sugar which cannot be improved until Machinery, a Tier 2 Mediaeval tech :<.

For the sake of balance, would it be possible to have all Worker actions relating to any luxuries be available from no later than Tier 2 of the Ancient era?

As for your options, I'd much prefer to see Brazilwood camps connect resources. Jungle can be extremely patchy or even rare in some map scripts so in those instances you want every tile to count.

Also, according to the base game and the map scripts I use, Citrus is found in Jungle and Grassland Forest and I imagine it is upto the map scripts to give priority to locations rather than VP.

Lastly, are you the person that runs http://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/Civ5_CBP_Wikia? If so, I have been using it for awhile and it is incredible - thanks very much.

I like the idea that ALL worker actions should be available early on, need a lot of input from the community though to see which ones at which tech.
Brazilwood connecting resources would be good but again, I'm not sure if that would make it a super tile or not.
Good point about the citrus and mapscripts. May be another reason to re-examine the Communitas script as it overrides alot of the functions from the lua that other maps use.

As to the wiki. Yeah that's me although it would be improper of me to take credit for it as most of the data input was done by others, I'm currently trying to take control and make it look unified.

 

[joosegoose25]

I don't think you can build Eki or Polders for example on a tile that has a resource on it either, probably consistent with every other unique tile improvements except for GP's.

Are Moai still this way as well? I remember they used to be and it bothered me...their biggest use is being built all along the coast and some games you can never get more than 2 or 3 in a cluster due to luxuries.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I'm totally down for plantations being constructable on jungle. Communitas was this way and I prefer it, strongly. Villages, too!

 

[thunderbird_14]

I don't think you can build Eki or Polders for example on a tile that has a resource on it either, probably consistent with every other unique tile improvements except for GP's.

Possibly because of graphical limitations as to why the BC cannot connects resources

 

[Hreat]

moving jungle/forest/marsh clear back to the original positions is one of the changes I make every time I download a new version.

I got very tired of the AIs establishing monopolies before I could connect even a single luxury. Having your luxuries gated for eras by the need to clear jungle or marsh is just tremendously un-fun. Unbalanced too.

 

[Hreat]

Possibly because of graphical limitations as to why the BC cannot connects resources

Not a technical limitation, just a design choice. Communitas at various times allowed unique improvements and GP improvements to be built on and connect strategic and/or luxury resources.

 

[Hreat]

I'm totally down for plantations being constructable on jungle. Communitas was this way and I prefer it, strongly. Villages, too!

If this was allowed you'd have to nerf all the yields unimproved jungles provide. Forcing the jungle to be cleared is necessary to maintain balance or else every banana plot would have higher yields than a natural wonder.

 

[Erikose]

I'm totally down for plantations being constructable on jungle. Communitas was this way and I prefer it, strongly. Villages, too!

If this was allowed you'd have to nerf all the yields unimproved jungles provide. Forcing the jungle to be cleared is necessary to maintain balance or else every banana plot would have higher yields than a natural wonder.

I miss the village not clearing jungle mechanic as well. Made up for many of the challenges mentioned above for jungle starts. I think the non-adjacency rule for villages keeps the benefits reasonable, although I did use to like some of the super tiles you could get with Communitas in the jungle!

With plantations clearing jungle, this does seem to mesh in terms of historical accuracy, and indeed the challenges associated with keeping them effective - and the workers alive! - only seemed to really work well by the 20th century. Many times, not even then! I think the era delays on this (and marshes) make sense from that perspective. Having the Brazilian UA allow an earlier way to develop jungle tiles does not seem OP for that civ.

Wish there were a way to make exceptions for resources, though, as it seems unrealistic that a civ would spend millennia having its capital next to a resource like sugar without thinking of any way to exploit it for use and trade.

-E

 

[zeofig]

I personally like that some resources are much harder to get up and running. However, the payoff for a lot of the jungle plantation stuff is quite low compared to other resources. They are so much worse than something like jade or tea. The exception is the ones that provide bonus culture, which make for very powerful early tiles. Anyway, I think a buff to the yield of some of these resources (with or without the plantation) would be cool.

 

[tu_79]

I prefer that jungle/forest are removed when building something like plantations, though camps don't remove forests. Camps yields are lower for that reason. I suppose, if plantations were balanced for that, they could be placed without chopping.

I see an option. Allow to remove jungle and swamps with earlier techs, but with higher cost, like 12 worker turns or so. And with modern techs, reduce the cost. So we can remove a jungle/swamp if the tile merits in classical, but only do that massively in industrial era.