British not English ?

[Merciorum]

Not actually strictly true. The Tudors, including Queen Elizabeth I as seen in CivV where a family of Welsh origin, originally spelled Tewdwr (or similar). The Welsh flag (the Ddraig Goch) is the same one unfurlled by Henry VII (Liz's Grandpa) when he marched through Wales on his way to seizing the crown at Bosworth Fields.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I retract my 4th statement, then.

 

[treadwin]

Well, he's not wholly wrong as Ireland is the name of the island as well, and he makes some indication that United Kingdom is technically a theocracy (which would be wrong), but the gist of what he's saying is about right. The part about Northern Ireland being British not Irish I believe is in respect to the passport/citizenship issue. Although it's pretty common to hold both the default in Northern Ireland is British, not Irish, citizenship.



Very much agree until that last two points. British, as an identity, didn't kick off until the early 1700s. Britons (or Brytons, if you prefer) are a different kettle of fish and refer to the people on the island of Great Britain (south of Scotland I think?) pre-500 AD or so. There's no link between the two except in approximate spelling.

To be honest, I'd prefer if they did Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English civs and then kept the Celts more focused on their European incarnation (a la Civ 4), but I'm a bit biased.

Well, as I said everything is open to interpretation. The term "British" or "Brytysh" was definitely applied to the Welsh alone first. Their language was also known as British.

However, there is plenty of evidence that not long after Geoffrey of Monmouth's 12th-century Historia Regum Britanniae, the King Arthur stories, most of the English started to see themselves as "British", rightly or wrongly.

 

[EulerMcE]

The part about Northern Ireland being British not Irish I believe is in respect to the passport/citizenship issue. Although it's pretty common to hold both the default in Northern Ireland is British, not Irish, citizenship.

I can see how it might be meant that way but the phrasing seems poor. "When people say they are Irish they are referring to the Republic of Ireland", while true in terms of citizenship, isn't necessarily true when talking about birth place/origin of ethnicity etc. Seems like it could lead to some dodgy inferences. Don't think it helps with the Northern Irish vs Irish graphic given how they sometimes overlap.

You're right in that the video is mostly correct and good for an overview, except he should have called the British Isles, the North Atlantic Archipelago of These Islands whose political and ethnic affiliations are mixed. jk

 

[poom3619]

...there's nothing in the UA or UUs that scream overseas empire.

"Sun never sets"

I didn't care much about the English/British thing. If I talk about British, it would involved Industrialization, Badass Empire that pretty much ruling the world in Victoria II and it's later part. While England, it would be Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Robin Hood, Tudor, War of the Roses and Longbowman.

I prefer later one. But if they put longbowman (and 2-ranged gattling gun) in a civ named British I would have no problem about it.

 

[treadwin]

You're right in that the video is mostly correct and good for an overview, except he should have called the British Isles, the North Atlantic Archipelago of These Islands whose political and ethnic affiliations are mixed. jk

But don't you find it amusing that the term "British isles" actually means "Celtic Isles".

Would anyone in Ireland actually object if the islands were in fact called the Celtic Islands?

The problem with "British" is that the name was hijacked by the greater English population when the stories of King Arthur romanticized the notion of Celtic (or British) supremecy. Essentially the victory at Bosworth (as pointed out earlier) could be viewed as the Celtic poputation taking back the island from the Normans.

Despite everything. The English and the Irish are a LOT closer ethnically than many people think, I guess we people from the North Atlantic Archipelago of These Islands whose political and ethnic affiliations are mixed, just love a good fight!

The resistance to the Romans, Angles and the Normans was fierce, and integration limited. IMO the English are far closer genetically to the Irish than many Americans claiming Irish ancestory.

 

[Hyper Nova]

"Sun never sets"

I didn't care much about the English/British thing. If I talk about British, it would involved Industrialization, Badass Empire that pretty much ruling the world in Victoria II and it's later part. While England, it would be Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Robin Hood, Tudor, War of the Roses and Longbowman.

I prefer later one. But if they put longbowman (and 2-ranged gattling gun) in a civ named British I would have no problem about it.

I didn't think about the name of the UA, I'll give you that, the function of fast ships says more about strong navy rather than distant empire to me though.

And yeah I agree England is what we have now. A civ called "Britain" or "UK" or whatever would be based around Victorian era not what we have.

It would be odd if the current version had a name change wouldn't make much sense.

Ps the has only been 1 Victoria

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I'm from England and let me tell you how it seems to be summed up in our sports media. If an English athlete does well, they're English. If a Scottish or Welsh athlete does well, they're British!

 

[treadwin]

I'm from England and let me tell you how it seems to be summed up in our sports media. If an English athlete does well, they're English. If a Scottish or Welsh athlete does well, they're British!

But strangely most people in England will cheer for Scotland, Wales and Ireland, as long as they are not playing England. The reverse is not true.

 

[PhilBowles]

Sorry to tell you this, but Wales was just a part of the Kingdom of England under Elizabeth. Therefore, it's quite acceptable to think of the Welsh Longbowmen as an English UU.

The identification of Wales as a separate entity is actually a bit of a historical oddity. It's been under English control since the 13th Century, fewer than three centuries less than some areas of the north uncontentiously considered part of England, or than the Channel Islands. Legally it's part of England (with the status of a province); there were Acts of Union with Scotland and Ireland, but not with Wales.

As for the "Welsh" longbow (also tellingly called the English longbow), this appears to have been a Norman English innovation. It's not clear whether the weapons referred to as 'longbows' in reference to Wales were of the same type, but it's the known English design that's famous from the Hundred Years War, and both English and Welsh archers used it in Agincourt. Regardless of its ultimate origin, it's as characteristic of the English as it is of the Welsh.

Though reverting to the achievement, the use of British for the unit name (British Great Musician) seems unnecessary since the Beatles were, in fact, English, as were most of the other major "British Invasion" acts.

 

[Luziadus]

we might have the British with Queen Victoria, instead of England, because the role they had in Africa.

 

[wilbeard]

we might have the British with Queen Victoria, instead of England, because the role they had in Africa.

They're already listed as the English in the revealed Scramble for Africa achievements, so that's not going to happen.

 

[Calouste]

Don't forget that Wales doesn't have the same history of legal separateness within the Union that Scotland has. It was entirely annexed to England, and was generally seen as part of England; it entered the Union as part of England.

Allegedly, in the first Encyclopedia Britannica, the index entry for Wales read "For Wales, see England".

 

[Calouste]

The identification of Wales as a separate entity is actually a bit of a historical oddity. It's been under English control since the 13th Century, fewer than three centuries less than some areas of the north uncontentiously considered part of England, or than the Channel Islands. Legally it's part of England (with the status of a province); there were Acts of Union with Scotland and Ireland, but not with Wales.

As for the "Welsh" longbow (also tellingly called the English longbow), this appears to have been a Norman English innovation. It's not clear whether the weapons referred to as 'longbows' in reference to Wales were of the same type, but it's the known English design that's famous from the Hundred Years War, and both English and Welsh archers used it in Agincourt. Regardless of its ultimate origin, it's as characteristic of the English as it is of the Welsh.

Though reverting to the achievement, the use of British for the unit name (British Great Musician) seems unnecessary since the Beatles were, in fact, English, as were most of the other major "British Invasion" acts.

I'm struggling to think about a non-English British Invasion act. Does Tom Jones count, he's Welsh?

 

[PhilBowles]

I think the "British Invasion" achievement can be done by any Civ, it simply means that you need to use a Great Musician who is British (irrespective of which civilization owns him) - so Gustav Holst for example.

I don't think it can work that way. The game doesn't distinguish GPs by real-world nationality - this is a game that can have a tooltip describing Macbeth as a Zulu Great Work if Shakespeare happens to spawn for the Zulu.

 

[mike1117112]

Jones was Welsh, Maggie Bell was Scottish, Rory Gallagher was Irish, Van Morrison was also Welsh I believe. Though most were English, they scoured the isles for acts to send over.

 

[Veneke]

...

The resistance to the Romans, Angles and the Normans was fierce, and integration limited. IMO the English are far closer genetically to the Irish than many Americans claiming Irish ancestory.

Dammit man, be cool, be cool! If they find that out our tourism is going to go down the tubes!

 

[Arachnofiend]

Jones was Welsh, Maggie Bell was Scottish, Rory Gallagher was Irish, Van Morrison was also Welsh I believe. Though most were English, they scoured the isles for acts to send over.

The only one of those that still has significant name recognition in the US is Van Morrison so a lot of people still think of it as an English Invasion.

 

[Giskler]

Maybe it means you have to use a named british GM to do it, e.g. Handel.

 

[Hans Castorp]

Jones was Welsh, Maggie Bell was Scottish, Rory Gallagher was Irish, Van Morrison was also Welsh I believe. Though most were English, they scoured the isles for acts to send over.

Van Morrison is Northern Irish, from Belfast.

 

[EulerMcE]

But don't you find it amusing that the term "British isles" actually means "Celtic Isles".

Would anyone in Ireland actually object if the islands were in fact called the Celtic Islands?

I don't like defining words by their etymology personally. I have a slight dislike toward the term 'British Isles' because it apparently confuses foreigners and some jimmy-rustlers use it as a poor rationalisation for calling Irish things British. Others seem to dislike it because they believe it implies Ireland is a subordinate state to Britain but I think that's more than a bit hyperbolic. And plenty of others don't care at all. 'Celtic' simply doesn't have the connotations that British has in the minds of many Irish people which I think is fair even if the original Brits were Celts themselves.

I'd find it a bit cringe-worthy if Ireland got lumped into a British civ. The Finns probably feel something similar about being lumped in with Sweden.
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International cultural blocks would be kind of cool but I'm not sure how they'd implement them. I imagine something like close civs hating each other's guts while getting some kind of shared cultural bonus. Just like in real life.