Wouldn't it be cool to have a massively multiplayer version all Internet hosted, whe individual games (pre galactic) can interact with one another on a galactic scale. Invasions could actually be other players. Of course that's a whole different game engine...
C2C - Galactic Era
- Thread starter Hydromancerx
- Start date
Now that is a really interesting idea.
One server set up to serve as the core of the C2C universe.
Any game started registers there. When you start to explore the galaxy you encounter the other planets that are actually C2C games and you can do invasions that the other game then has to play against.
Quite some effort but would likely be funny.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Could such a concept actully be done?
Sure. Big project though. Could probably even use civ 4 as the front end, though to be honest a more bespoke front end would be better. To realize that I'd say two stages. Given the team we have now, plus about two more developers with strong graphics programming background (to do a new front end):
- Phase 1 - Internet hosted game server that runs a number of parallel separate games, with essentially similar functionality to the civ 4 engine, but with probably a slightly different multiple player model, to allow for somewhat more asynchronous play, without the bottlenecks of a play by email type model.
- Phase 2 - meta game model over many otherwise independent games, which allows for planetary invasions and so on
I'd say about a year for phase 1 (maybe 18 months), probably another year for phase 2 in parallel with working significant bugs out of phase 1.
I'd say we'd need a totally new front end for licensing reasons as well as functional desirability. Of course given the freedom to define our own front end to back end interfaces we would probably go for something more geometry independent, and map to hexes on the actual player map.
Obviously the hosting wouldn't be free, but cloud based computing is getting cheaper all the time from players like amazon. Would need to be researched, but I think you could pay for the hosting if players would pay a few dollars per month.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Personally i hate hex maps. That's one of the many reasons I don't like Civ5.
WOAH we're thinking big here. (on a 'galactic' scale even
)
Could it really be the right way to go to break from the civ engine completely? I for one would be skeptical that such an undertaking could remain cohesive long enough to bear fruit. The legal issues would probably stymie this also, but liberating from the civ engine might very well be the eventual 'end state' of this massive project.
Personally I'd rather squeeze everything we can out of civ 4 before we even consider such a drastic step.
)Could it really be the right way to go to break from the civ engine completely? I for one would be skeptical that such an undertaking could remain cohesive long enough to bear fruit. The legal issues would probably stymie this also, but liberating from the civ engine might very well be the eventual 'end state' of this massive project.
Personally I'd rather squeeze everything we can out of civ 4 before we even consider such a drastic step.
nightcreature
Ready to Pounce!
if you use something like this:
Spoiler :
and you add the civ's flags and circles to certain locations, it could work, giving you something like this:
Spoiler :
with all colonies, obviously.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Again that's still a finite map. Much better just to have a list where new discovered places can be added as you go.
That is the big variant.
I was thinking more of a small variant like this (still lots of work):
Normal Civ4 C2C playing and engine.
A simple server (it needs to run all the time but the load is very limited).
The first time a game connects to the server, it gets assigned a position in space.
Some global information about the map and its players is transmitted and updated when it changes.
When you get to the later parts of the game you can start exploring space in a screen similar to what Hydro described here earlier and the game then starts questioning the server about planets that are in the area that you explore. You first only get limited information about each planet but you can send an exploration mission to find out more.
Interaction between games only happens as missions, each with their own leader and if they appear in other games then as AI and you only might get messages or events now and then.
Missions might be invasions, trade attempts, production colonies and the like.
One difficult thing to do would be how to deal with missions in which the counterpart game is not played in that time or not a lot.
While that is still a big undertaking, it is mostly so on the concept, coding and AI part and not a lot on the graphics part.
That is the big variant.
I was thinking more of a small variant like this (still lots of work):
Normal Civ4 C2C playing and engine.
A simple server (it needs to run all the time but the load is very limited).
The first time a game connects to the server, it gets assigned a position in space.
Some global information about the map and its players is transmitted and updated when it changes.
When you get to the later parts of the game you can start exploring space in a screen similar to what Hydro described here earlier and the game then starts questioning the server about planets that are in the area that you explore. You first only get limited information about each planet but you can send an exploration mission to find out more.
Interaction between games only happens as missions, each with their own leader and if they appear in other games then as AI and you only might get messages or events now and then.
Missions might be invasions, trade attempts, production colonies and the like.
One difficult thing to do would be how to deal with missions in which the counterpart game is not played in that time or not a lot.
While that is still a big undertaking, it is mostly so on the concept, coding and AI part and not a lot on the graphics part.
I'd be (very) worried about being in breach of license terms on Civ4 if you started using their (Firaxis') game engine to front essentially a different game (not running where the licensee has the game installed). Its a legal quagmire once you start runnin stuff off-machine.
@Hydro - why do you not like hexes? Being stuck with squares is the one thing (and actually the ONLY thing) that bothers me abou Civ4 as compared to Civ 5. Reason is that it distorts distances much more than a hex grid does.
While I understand your concern, we are not copying any of their code or running that on a different machine. We are only installing an interface to a different software in a part of the software they have explicitely opened under the terms specified in the game license agreement under "Software Utilities". That requires that it is non commercial which it will still be and that it can only be used in combination with Civ4 which is true as well.
There are several mods already that could be considered an entirely different game with Civ4 only as frontend.
How would this be any different than us posting saves on the forums? If I read this correctly, thats all we'd need to put on this hypothetical server. If you are really concerned about that, buy an extra civ 4 and install it on the server. BTW, is the MP code in the exe or the DLL?
Personally I'd prefer something similar to what Nightcreature and Hydro are debating then to try something this drastic.
Oh yeh, I was just speculating about a future project, not really suggesting we try anything this radical for C2C. The big benefits of placing all the AI + game logic on the server is that it enables asynchronous MP models, and also much higher MP performance levels (or at least scalability)
Ah, ok, you were thinking about that kind of rather strong coupling in which games mostly run on a server. That would be interesting as well but definitely a big project for a new game.
It should already be possible to split up the AI code to the different PCs in a Civ4 multiplayer game which should yield quite some performance gain. The only important change would be to change the actions of the AI to using the same net messages as players use and run the AI only on one PC then.
I guess, if you save some information for the AIs in save games then those have to be synchronized with a new net message.
I think the latency of the communications overhead from having the AI split would impose a higher burden than the CPU effort divsion would gain. It needs a whole different synchronisation model to work efficiently, which is why it is really for a different, and much wider, project
rightfuture
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,649
Hey guys please check out this fork of planetfall.
Conflict on Chiron
http://civforum.de/showthread.php?t=68830
if you scroll down you will see pictures of very interesting units.
That forum is in German.
the conflict on Chiron
forum is back up on civfanatics as well
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=426026
Looks like some really good stuff that could be immediately used here.
Conflict on Chiron
http://civforum.de/showthread.php?t=68830
if you scroll down you will see pictures of very interesting units.
That forum is in German.
the conflict on Chiron
forum is back up on civfanatics as well
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=426026
Looks like some really good stuff that could be immediately used here.
Seconded, that mod contains reams of stuff we could plunder. Some of it would require DLL work, but lots could be copy-pasted with few adjustments straight into C2C.
As a postscript I've been hoping for the SMAC concept of orbital buildings to be added. This might be the big thing for V20.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Don't expect any galactic era stuff for awhile. Maybe not until next year.
Sorry for being vague, I meant the SMAC/Conflict on Chiron stuff. Lot of that stuff is transhuman era equivalent and on 'earth'.
I think your all completely ignoring something basic... with the current time/turn system the galactic era is meaningless. It'd take years to.... more likely decades to get to a new solar system. Turns are practically daily at that point. So lots of these ideas fail to make any sense on that scale. So the time scale must be altered at some point after race to the moon. As is it takes less than a year to win a space race once the shiip is launched... I'd suggest that space ship is sent to colonize in system until you can build the infrastructure to leave the system.
Anyway, My own theory on how this would work is to start off the game with a menu that lists extra planetary things as the local star and then what ever moon(s) circle the planet the Civs are on. As time goes on the largest/brightest objects in the solar system are added to the in solar system menu. The details of which are rather vague until astronomy comes around and starts filling in details. Once you get observatories then random discover heavenly bodies get a bit of detail and other are found.
Once you can get stuff in orbit via the satalites tech... you can then start getting map data on the moon. Then you can start mapping the other planets/moons in the solar system, more tech gives faster travel and were the useful colony spors. These being limited. You need a space elevator and a space station to even get that far... a lunar colony will also speed things up.
The number of viable colony slots are like cities and offer control points for various heavenly bodies. You take over a percentage of the planets and each colony neeeds supply ships and personal send to them... treat them wrong and you'll end up with a chance for mutany or just in fighting... which means more troops need to be send up to quell things. Too much force and your not accomplishing anything on base... too little and you'll lose control and leave yourself open to invasion from foreign powers. This will require lots and lots ship types and a launch site to send the from. Also ships can get lost or explode in transit/on the launch pad.
OPnce you get extra solar craft you pick a star to send the ship to... and the same thing occurs with other Civs... meaning two ships can end up fighting for control of that system (more likely each taking a planet or having colony wars with crazy long supply chains). That or you get to set things up and luck into getting left alone in that system. However until communications are in place you don't actually know what is going on in those systems at that time..
Just a basic idea of what makes sense to me. Random events are going to be killer/awesome until certain techs are around.
Anyway, My own theory on how this would work is to start off the game with a menu that lists extra planetary things as the local star and then what ever moon(s) circle the planet the Civs are on. As time goes on the largest/brightest objects in the solar system are added to the in solar system menu. The details of which are rather vague until astronomy comes around and starts filling in details. Once you get observatories then random discover heavenly bodies get a bit of detail and other are found.
Once you can get stuff in orbit via the satalites tech... you can then start getting map data on the moon. Then you can start mapping the other planets/moons in the solar system, more tech gives faster travel and were the useful colony spors. These being limited. You need a space elevator and a space station to even get that far... a lunar colony will also speed things up.
The number of viable colony slots are like cities and offer control points for various heavenly bodies. You take over a percentage of the planets and each colony neeeds supply ships and personal send to them... treat them wrong and you'll end up with a chance for mutany or just in fighting... which means more troops need to be send up to quell things. Too much force and your not accomplishing anything on base... too little and you'll lose control and leave yourself open to invasion from foreign powers. This will require lots and lots ship types and a launch site to send the from. Also ships can get lost or explode in transit/on the launch pad.
OPnce you get extra solar craft you pick a star to send the ship to... and the same thing occurs with other Civs... meaning two ships can end up fighting for control of that system (more likely each taking a planet or having colony wars with crazy long supply chains). That or you get to set things up and luck into getting left alone in that system. However until communications are in place you don't actually know what is going on in those systems at that time..
Just a basic idea of what makes sense to me. Random events are going to be killer/awesome until certain techs are around.
