C2C - Galactic Era

[The_J]

Moderator Action:
This derailment will stop now.
a) this is an english speaking forum. If you write in another language, you have to provide an english translation for the text.

b) Please adhere to the modding nettiquete:
- Everything which is uploaded to CFC is free to use, under the prerequisite that credit is given (no permission required).

Please note that it's not allowed to respond to moderator actions in public. If you have a problem wit this here, then write me via PM.

And now back to topic.

 

[Maniac]

For the record, feel free to use Planetfall stuff...

 

[Monaldinio]

I apologize in this way for my post. It was excessive and inappropriate. And yes, it is the same situation that exists between me and Maniac. I also used work that is not from me. To transpose my ideas better.
I want to apologize to each I've attacked inappropriate. I'm sorry and I am ashamed!
Since I now know the other side of the medals, I'm going to strongly consider if I give something free to download again.

Sorry for my english...

 

[Hydromancerx]

Since Civ Fuehrer is around I thought I would wake up this beast. There is a lot to do for the Galactic Era and now is as good of time as any too go over what need to be done.

First the major part of it is the "Astropedia". This is the menu that needs to be made so the era can actually have some meaning. As said before it would have the following functions ....

Main Screen:
Astropedia

Tabs:
Discovery
Tells your people where and how to search the skies.

Planetarium
Tells you what you have discovered and gives you the demographics for each entry, sorted by Galaxy/Sector/System/Subsystem

Command
Allows you to communicate with your colonies and direct ships stationed at those colonies.

Ship Augment
Allows you to research how to create better ships. The more of one branch you have, the more difficult it is to attain the other. Split between Speed, Armor and Damage. These will allow for the player to discover new synthetic material to use on their ships.

To go in the Astropedia would be things like Sun, Moon, Comets, Planets, Stars, etc. However it was very vague to me on how this should be done. I understand when they should be revealed but what are they? Are they buildings? projects? some other value that only exists in the pedia?

Another issue is map units vs non-map units and how those should work. New map units would need to be put in that go beyond our current best units such as ...

Disintegration Tech -> Anti-Matter Tech -> 4D Tech

Then there are things that I can work on such as changing over the space ship to higher techs ...

- SS Casting = Megastrong Alloys
- SS Cockpit = Galactic Federation
- SS Docking Bay = Attometer Engineering
- SS Life Support = Advanced Seedships
- SS Stasis Chamber = Cryogenics? (maybe something completely different so no slumbering)
- SS Engines = Endogenous Euclidean Propulsion
- SS Thrusters = Endogenous Euclidean Propulsion

There is so much that needs to be done for this era. Having someone like Civ Fuehrer around to help with it would be great.

 

[Civ Fuehrer]

Alright, to answer your first question about the Astropedia, the celestial entities are values that only exist in the pedia but have visible effects in-game such as income, technology, culture, etc.

All units will be 'map units' however they will be shared with the python/DLL to maintain and reference the true number of and complete clones of said units. In other words, whether they're created by a home planet city or another planet's colony, that unit will exist until destroyed or upgraded in either CPU/GPU on the map or in the python/DLL when in space. So if it's on the home planet, the player can control it, but when the player tells it to go to space, it will seamlessly transfer controls from the map to the pedia.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Some questions for Civ Fuehrer.

1. Could you explain more about the "Astropedia" and how you envisioned it working? Maybe explain what needs to be done by the C2C team to get one up and working.

2. How did your random planets, stars and stuff work? I have some file here have have random generation code.

3. If i recall all units in space were not on the map at all right? There have been some suggestions that unit should go on the Z axis in very high latitude. However I don;t think this would work well.

Another suggestion has been making all maps be half and half maps where half of the map if normal terrain and then either above or below the poles there is a star map using the Final Frontier mod. This 2nd idea is not bad, but still means there would be a limited universe. Then again if its a map of a single galaxy then we could just say that the later spaceship is going to the next galaxy which would be very far away. I am starting to lean towards this choice since it would give a visual representation of space for space battles.

 

[Civ Fuehrer]

1. As seen in the image above, the Astropedia has tabs that you mentioned above, for C2C it will have four. The first one to be put in would be the Planetarium tab which is the defaulted tab of the window and would have a dynamic list of sections and sub-sections. Each entry would not have any information on the subject entity until researched.

2. In those snippets of XML data, you see a list of possible presets that define each entity that will be discovered. During a discovery event, the DLL will choose one of the types that is to be discovered which will have those presets in the XML. The pedia will then go on to randomize a set of unique stats for the entity which will not be revealed to the player until researched.

3. What I suggested was to have the game transfer all the data on the unit in question from the game board into the data table that is the pedia and vice versa. This reflects back to my last post about seamlessly transferring controls.

Some questions for Civ Fuehrer.
Another suggestion has been making all maps be half and half maps where half of the map if normal terrain and then either above or below the poles there is a star map using the Final Frontier mod. This 2nd idea is not bad, but still means there would be a limited universe. Then again if its a map of a single galaxy then we could just say that the later spaceship is going to the next galaxy which would be very far away. I am starting to lean towards this choice since it would give a visual representation of space for space battles.

Now that is an interesting concept that I hadn't thought of. Although it's been suggested to me to make super-small planets with space separating them on the game map, this idea brings up a nice solution. If it's possible to double the height of maps and lock off the y-axis scrolling at a certain variable then it is more than possible to have the feel of a dual-map in one map.

Should this proposition take place you could have the Planetarium point to the system/sub-system in the galaxy map. Selecting each system would bring up a window to manage the stars, planets and asteroids of that system and the colonies of each of them.

The only problem that I see with this however, is that I initially wanted to avoid unrealistic distance times. If a ship leaves Earth to go to Alpha Centauri, it'll take no more than 1-5 turns, but without the board it would take the appropriate 30 or so turns. This is unless the galaxy map is treated differently than a regular civ map, which would take a few months just to program with a team.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Alright, to answer your first question about the Astropedia, the celestial entities are values that only exist in the pedia but have visible effects in-game such as income, technology, culture, etc.

All units will be 'map units' however they will be shared with the python/DLL to maintain and reference the true number of and complete clones of said units. In other words, whether they're created by a home planet city or another planet's colony, that unit will exist until destroyed or upgraded in either CPU/GPU on the map or in the python/DLL when in space. So if it's on the home planet, the player can control it, but when the player tells it to go to space, it will seamlessly transfer controls from the map to the pedia.

Ok so lets take for example a late galactic era unit, the Seedship. As discussed before it would take X amount of turns to get to its destination based upon various propulsion methods. Is this seedship an actual unit? Or is it like a building or project? If it is a unit it would both take time to produce in the city AND take time to get to wherever it needed to go in space right?

Also what about battles in space? This has been a question people have been wanting to know.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Now that is an interesting concept that I hadn't thought of. Although it's been suggested to me to make super-small planets with space separating them on the game map, this idea brings up a nice solution. If it's possible to double the height of maps and lock off the y-axis scrolling at a certain variable then it is more than possible to have the feel of a dual-map in one map.

Should this proposition take place you could have the Planetarium point to the system/sub-system in the galaxy map. Selecting each system would bring up a window to manage the stars, planets and asteroids of that system and the colonies of each of them.

The only problem that I see with this however, is that I initially wanted to avoid unrealistic distance times. If a ship leaves Earth to go to Alpha Centauri, it'll take no more than 1-5 turns, but without the board it would take the appropriate 30 or so turns. This is unless the galaxy map is treated differently than a regular civ map, which would take a few months just to program with a team.

With a split map there may be some issues with unit spawning since as I recall certain animal units spawn on either the north or south hemisphere. Thus making one hemisphere Earth while the other is space. That would also make a pretty crazy looking globe. Not to mention every map would be cut in half for their area. I think all pre-made maps would be messed up as well.

As for distance between stars (which is what it basically would be for a galactic map) I would think you could set up new unit classes for spaceships and have their movement limited. This would also mean that spaceships could not no on the terrestrial map, and vice versa. Otherwise the unit would move extremely slow on the planet or extremely fast in space.

Its really too bad you cannot generate 2 separate maps and then toggle between them. But I suppose even if you could it would eat up so much graphics that it would not be worth it.

I would like to hear some feedback from the rest of the team on what they think.

 

[Monaldinio]

I have a suggestion, let us work together on a space scenario for our mods.
What do you think?
You have ideas and resouces, I have ideas... and...mhmmm...me!

 

[AIAndy]

Its really too bad you cannot generate 2 separate maps and then toggle between them. But I suppose even if you could it would eat up so much graphics that it would not be worth it.

Actually recent experiments for tactical battles have shown that you can.
We could use the same code to switch to an equal sized star map.
The big question will be how fast the transition is between the two maps.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Actually recent experiments for tactical battles have shown that you can.
We could use the same code to switch to an equal sized star map.
The big question will be how fast the transition is between the two maps.

This is BIG if it can be done. What mod us using "tactical battles"?

Is the map a real terrain map? If so this would be much easier to implement since there are already space graphics.

Please tell me more about this.

EDIT: Is this it? Because if it is, this is like perfect!!

 

[AIAndy]

This is BIG if it can be done. What mod us using "tactical battles"?

Is the map a real terrain map? If so this would be much easier to implement since there are already space graphics.

Please tell me more about this.

EDIT: Is this it? Because if it is, this is like perfect!!

Yes, that is what I am referring to. The experiments are still ongoing but it looks good, especially for our case where we would use an equal sized map as space map.

 

[Koshling]

Yes, that is what I am referring to. The experiments are still ongoing but it looks good, especially for our case where we would use an equal sized map as space map.

Based on what I am seeing on graphic setup time in my experiments aimed at memory reduction, such a switch would probably take 5 seconds or so on a reasonable machine for a gigantic map.

 

[rightfuture]

I love the idea of an amazing dream team of such innovators working together to see what is possible!
I hope other visionaries will add their voice to the chorus.
Reach far for the stars and the future, you never know how far you can go together

I believe in all of you.

 

[Koshling]

I love the idea of an amazing dream team of such innovators working together to see what is possible!
I hope other visionaries will add their voice to the chorus.
Reach far for the stars and the future, you never know how far you can go together

I believe in you.

lol.

I still want to thorw Civ4 away entirely and re-implement cleanly with a number of goals:

• Much better scalability (in map size etc.)
• Support for variable geometrty (allow hex maps, though ideally not demand them)
• Efficient server hosted multi-player, where the AIs run as separate processes and appear to the game engine as if they were just another player (i.e. - separate the AI layer entirely and in principal allow multiple different AIs to participate), and we only sync visible state, not underlying decision logic
• Modern implementation language so we get away from all the pointer-error type issues (I'd vote for C# but I could probably live with Java if forced to)
• 64-bit natively
• Designed from the start to be multi-threaded

However, it's largely a pipe-dream. I have most of the skill-set necesary to do the server hosting/networking/game-state/AI, but not the UI stuff. Would need someone to write a front end (after we agreed a clean interface between rendering engine and game state engine). Of course, even with all the right skill sets on board it would still be a HUGE effort (fun though!)

 

[rightfuture]

@Koshling -

Stick with this dream, carry it far so that is speaks loudly for itself, and your team is already being built around you. Keep looking and you will find even more of the right pieces, ideas, and teammates.

Your momentum is just starting to accelerate and people are starting to take notice. It is bringing people back to CIV 4, like it did me. You personally inspire me to contribute better and want to learn how to mod CIV 4. I would be proud to someday be called your teammate. With your continued efforts you will attract more like minds and more partners.

The best way to get to your dreams, is to make more calculated risks and trust that you can find people you can reach with. By being willing to help each other and cooperate on common dreams, we can multiply our efforts. All societies form this way. We need to take these risks and set aside our disagreements so we can all get farther. Evolve achievable goals together and get better at reaching for the next one. It is all about learning to find the way with other people who share the same goal, pushing it past our expectations. We can only do so much or see so much by ourselves. We all need other people to get there.

It is no pipe-dream. I think we all share a desire to see an improved Civilization. We should all team up person-to-person and unite behind our love and goal. I mean it. We just need to stick together, stay the course, learn to overcome differences and obstacles, and experiment. That dream will come when it is obvious that we are proven to be ready.

I want to make the case that C2C is the simply best promise to build and deliver that possibility soundly and clearly. It is an excellent incubator for ideas. The efforts have been building from CIV IV through BTS, to the community efforts of Revolution and BUG, to Dales Combat Mod becoming REVDCM, combining with ROM and progressing to AND and inspiring, and now improving along with C2C. C2C is a potential rocketship ready to take off. The fact that you can see a new ultimate game past CIV IV through C2C means that C2C is showing off it's potential. Realize that potential and the next game will have the team and experience it needs as well as a compelling example. Imagine if we could unite many more of the CIV IV modders and players behind that community dream. C2C now has that potential. It is the best incubator for that future and the best way for us to stick together to see it. Don't you want to see where it goes?

I have a good bit of experience with projects (not gaming); having started several businesses (one very ambitious that delivered), a bachelors in business administration, some management experience, a little novice programming, and lifetime of speculating on how to create a better game. Look at what CIV IV, ROM, FFH, and AND have all accomplished. I can purely see that C2C is evolving quicker and quicker and is pointed at becoming something great and unexpected. C2C can inspire the next CIV. Let's see what C2C can become 1st. I see that momentum picking up. Where could it take you?
Where can it take us?

 

[rightfuture]

Welcome Civ Fuehrer, Monaldinio, and Afforess! (Maniac, please join us a little if you will, everyone would love a moment of your thoughts)

We appreciate that while you are working your own projects, even if it is only ideas,
you are open to pioneer and share as you feel comfortable with this outstanding C2C team,
All for the love of exploring the limits of what can be done to improve the civilization experience together. It is a great place to follow its future and allow you to dabble in civ modding or discussion at your leisure, as well as inspire others with your past and future efforts. I appreciate you making an effort to contribute a little and follow these threads. Who knows what together you could dream up and what your ideas could inspire? A little can go a long way.

I hope you can see that you will all accomplish so much more together, while exploring your own vision, and collectively push the limits of Civilization with C2C. Stand together and we will be able to reach farther!

Thank you again, C2C mod team, for opening your doors, taking it to the next level, and then reaching beyond. You each inspire me to want to be here as much as possible, and have convinced me that I should learn to mod.

It is the labor of love that builds our future. Wonder why I choose to be here? I see myself through here. You guys truly inspire me, and I know a lot about inspiration. My life takes me away, but I see exciting possibilities. I hope you do too.

Please share that love for Civ and Civ modding by reaching out to a few other modders and inspiring a few new ones (like me) a little.

I see C2C as rapidly becoming the Ultimate community mod, for the love of CIV.

 

[rightfuture]

I am excited to see a developing Galactic Era (and expanding future eras),
I hope to see a lot more new ideas folded together to create an ambitious continuation of its possibilities. It would be nice if you can encourage the mod makers of some of the other great mods to come together for a moment to at least see what they think or could dream up.

I love the idea of exploring the future, and good science fiction, in books as well as movies, have a lot of ideas worth playing. I look forward to seeing how they could be included.
The concepts in Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, as well as 4x and other space games most notably the Master of Orion series, the Galactic Civilizations series, the Space Empires series, and others are worth exploring. My definitive series on the subject, The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov, is a benchmark for galactic strategy. The Ender Series by Orson Scott Card is also notable. Both are being pursed into making movies right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4X

There are some good pen and paper roleplaying and strategy games like Classic Traveller, Star Frontiers, Battletech (also call Mechwarrior), and GURPS as I have played and have lots of good material to draw inspiration from.

Here is a link to 101 different space rpgs with links.
http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-spacesci-fi-role-playing-games-with.html

I like the way the original Master of Orion manages it's game details. Maybe that could be a could be an inspiration for information management.
I really enjoy talking about these ideas. Hope it opens up more discussion for development.

 

[ls612]

Yes, that is what I am referring to. The experiments are still ongoing but it looks good, especially for our case where we would use an equal sized map as space map.

What would that do to memory issues though...