C2C - Transhuman Era

[Arakhor]

Why react before the performance issues can be sorted out? Shouldn't we be more focused on those first?

Absolutely. Solving the performance issues would be a great idea (I'm sure everyone would love to see them fixed), but continuing with content development without modularising large sections of the mod is just going to make the performance issues even worse.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Absolutely. Solving the performance issues would be a great idea (I'm sure everyone would love to see them fixed), but continuing with content development without modularising large sections of the mod is just going to make the performance issues even worse.

I've no problem with modularizing eras as DH suggested. Although I do think that the full game should be the default.

 

[Thunderbrd]

1.Preh Era ends at ~6000BC (Certain GS will not land exactly on 6000BC, but I can get real close)

Right.

2. Ancient Starts at ~6000BC but should end at ?. I would venture 2000BC as it stands now. Any objections?

2000BC would be about right for that I think.

3. Classical Starts at ~2000BC but should end at ? 600AD? 700AD? or 800AD?
4. Medieval starts at ~600-800AD? Ends at ? 1200AD? 1400AD?

I think it might be beneficial to look at a few of the primary juncture techs (which doesn't help much for medieval being as many of the most advanced classical techs should actually be in the medieval era the way it currently is) would have begun to be largely implemented in history. I think you do have a bit of wiggle room with these junctures.

5. Ren Starts at ~1200-1400AD? Ends at ?. 1700AD? 1800AD?

I think the beginning of Industrial revolution (the Cotton Gin invention and the assembly line process would really be the marker for that) was considered to be about 1700AD. I could be wrong.

6. Industrial Starts at ~1700-1800AD? Ends at 1920AD? 1950AD?

I think 1900-1920 would be a fair end point for Industrial. I would not go past 1920 as WWI tech is well into Modern.

7. Modern starts at ~ 1920-1950AD? Ends at 2030AD? 2050AD?

Whatever works best for you I think. We're clearly on the threshold and crossing in now so 2020 could be right even... Or perhaps even 2000 and we assume we ARE in the Transhuman NOW with a few techs there already achieved. Like Cloud Computing perhaps.

8. TH starts at 2030-2050AD? Ends at 3000AD.
9. Galactic starts at 3000AD. Ends at 5000AD?
10. Future starts at ~5000AD?

Sounds about right.

Fairly simple really. We can't make every C2C GS follow Vanilla BtS timeframe of making the GSs run 6050 years from Ancient thru Modern ages. Historical accuracy on Dates matching Techs will not happen as in Vanilla. So when "they" gripe they need to be told No it's not possible for us to do that Because of our extended GS lengths. Period. Instead of constantly bending over backwards creating more work to even try to get within a few Game years of their expectations. We don't say No enough to all the push for Historical Accuracy. And Modders of C2C (past and present) have caused and allowed this problem to continue.

True. This is why I gave up on it for now because it won't be until the dust settles that we can really narrow in on things better.

One thing I'm wondering... we took out a lot of tech cost variables recently and zeroed things out. How are tech research times faring throughout various eras? I saw a few things that suggested they might start getting a lot faster to research once you get to mid Ancient.

And finally sorry I didn't follow you and Praetyre's dialogue over GSs way back then. As our GS were different at that time as were expectations and Mod goals.

And then ls612 did another redesign after those discussions. lol... I was just mentioning them because we had come to a consensus about the era dates before, not that it should matter too much now.

 

[JosEPh_II]

One the very last item, ls612 put in a modifier that:

ls612: iGoldModifier = Global percentage modifier for ALL costs. Higher equals less gold, lower equals more gold. Default is 100.

It is somehow an over arching gold modifier. It is this Modifier that has not been touched (that I know of). We have had many ppl adjust various gold modifiers in numerous xml files when this one is supposedly The Main modifier over ALL costs. Only ls612 knows what it's level of authority really is.

It is also one of the Modifier that I am testing to reduce the Gold in the GSs Snail thru Eternity where there is always a surplus. Epic and Normal are affect much much less. But even they will get a 5 to 10% change (ie reduction) Marathon is set at the default 100.

In the long run I may only trim a few hundred turns off of Eternity and Eon (not the 4-2k I wanted to do originally) and that only thru readjusting turns per era.

The biggest adjustment will be making the Preh era in all GS to end at ~6000BC and adding some more turns on the longest GS to that Era. While Classical and Medieval may lose a few turns on the 3 longest GS.

One last question for now. Was it necessary to change the "iYearIncrement = Number years that pass each turn" into "iMonthIncrement" for the 1st several Eras? Does iYear still function as it was originally designed? Would cut down on a lot of divide by 12 calculations if so.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Here is another idea (rather long-term, I am not sure if I have already said it somewhere): Would it be possible to define buildings that are absolutely necessary to contribute to a research effort? Like: This city cannot partake in the research of Modern Physics, there is no University (or Physics Lab)? That could (again long-term) replace many cases of beakers providing buildings, perhaps to a point where the exponential curve could be replaced with a lower curve, eliminating one souce of overflow. Plus, I think there is a limit how much our current civilization could accelerate the development of prehistoric or ancient techs, if they were lost to us (if there were no more carpenters, how quickly could we redevelop the tech, even with computers?).

Can't be done at a city level but we already have techs in game that require a building before you can study them. This is coded in the dll, thanks to Afforess. We currently use it on two dead end techs that provide special resources and bonuses thus build bonuses.

I am investigating the possibility of requiring a resource, it should be possible but requires Koshling's improved Python Call Back mechanism to work in more than one place which it doesn't appear to be doing at the moment. Or more likely I am doing it wrong.

I don't think we're bugged with the building prereq for techs are we DH?

No it is working fine, there is another bug but I have not tracked it down to a cause yet. It seems to just be caused by selecting a tech to far in the future requiring more than 100 to 110 techs to be highlighted.

And I'm still strongly feeling like Great Scientists and/or Engineers or other GPs should be necessary to access the special alternative timeline techs. I wouldn't even mind it if we took each of the special riding buildings like Bear Trainer and put them in unique techs that can only be unlocked by a Great Hunter or something along those lines.

I don't think we can do this at the moment.

@Joe Agree 2000BC end for ancient, as long as you get to complete the Pyramids before this date.

Classic would end 600-700 AD
Medieval 1300-1400 AD (major era of Law reform in Europe btw)
Renaissance ~1700 AD
Industrial 1940 AD

This time scale fits quite well with dance forms y'know

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thanks for the input DH, just about where I had the starts and ends.

What do you call today's dance forms? Retro Tribalistic?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

One the very last item, ls612 put in a modifier that:

It is somehow an over arching gold modifier. It is this Modifier that has not been touched (that I know of). We have had many ppl adjust various gold modifiers in numerous xml files when this one is supposedly The Main modifier over ALL costs. Only ls612 knows what it's level of authority really is.

It is also one of the Modifier that I am testing to reduce the Gold in the GSs Snail thru Eternity where there is always a surplus. Epic and Normal are affect much much less. But even they will get a 5 to 10% change (ie reduction) Marathon is set at the default 100.

Good idea to see what you can achieve with it.

In the long run I may only trim a few hundred turns off of Eternity and Eon (not the 4-2k I wanted to do originally) and that only thru readjusting turns per era.

The biggest adjustment will be making the Preh era in all GS to end at ~6000BC and adding some more turns on the longest GS to that Era. While Classical and Medieval may lose a few turns on the 3 longest GS.

It's a little different looking at the situation from the xml values and when deeply seeing the underside of the system isn't it?

One last question for now. Was it necessary to change the "iYearIncrement = Number years that pass each turn" into "iMonthIncrement" for the 1st several Eras? Does iYear still function as it was originally designed? Would cut down on a lot of divide by 12 calculations if so.

I can't remember. My apologies. I'm not sure I ever knew tbh. You'll have to test a bit.

One thing I remember about the prehistoric we haven't discussed that maybe we should... for the earliest techs we have a start date of 200,000 BC may be more appropriate but it would generally mean splitting the prehistoric into two eras and starting the second at 50k BC. This would give us a lot more fun to work with later with earth changes but would really almost then require we do that so I don't know if we want to consider this now or leave it til much much later to reconsider once again.

No it is working fine, there is another bug but I have not tracked it down to a cause yet. It seems to just be caused by selecting a tech to far in the future requiring more than 100 to 110 techs to be highlighted.

Interesting.

I don't think we can do this at the moment.

If we use the building prereqs we can by proxy. A building can be only built by a type of GP and the tech may require the building.

@Joe Agree 2000BC end for ancient, as long as you get to complete the Pyramids before this date.

Should be able to. The ancient leaves plenty of time to build them before you tend to get past the era.

Classic would end 600-700 AD

Makes sense.

Medieval 1300-1400 AD (major era of Law reform in Europe btw)

Makes sense.

Renaissance ~1700 AD

Agree.

Industrial 1940 AD

I think this is really far too far into the modern at this point...

 

[JosEPh_II]

WW II is when America's Industrial Might took full form, Much much more than WW I. The same goes for Europe, Russia, Japan, and Australia. China to a much lesser degree but still significant. Which in turn ushered in the Modern age for most of the civilized world

If I use 1940 to 2020 for modern that gives me 80 yrs to work with, if I use 1920, post WWI, I have 100 to work with. Given that Modern Era currently houses 92 techs the 100 year span works a bit better for number of turns for the era. So I think I'll use the 20 to 20 for 100.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One last question for now. Was it necessary to change the "iYearIncrement = Number years that pass each turn" into "iMonthIncrement" for the 1st several Eras? Does iYear still function as it was originally designed? Would cut down on a lot of divide by 12 calculations if so.

JosEPh

I believe it was done to make it easier for the modder to compare only. As far as I know it works fine as years still.

What do you call today's dance forms? Retro Tribalistic?

JosEPh

There are documents from the Renaissance and earlier that would suggest that the modern form is more in line with them but not quite as "free". The Industrial era brought in the idea that everyone should be doing the same thing at the same time, eg waltz and ballet, as it made the dance look like cogs in a machine. Don't get me wrong, there were, to use the modern names, line and square dances earlier but it was not always necessary for each person in the line or square to be doing the same steps for example; individual flourishes and variations were a good sign of a potential future spouse.

As an aside, you know those tall pointy hats women wore at one period, the theory is that they came into fashion to stop a particular form of follow the leader dance. It is seen as part of the process of women civilizing men and improving their manners.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd have to refer to the tech tree to see where we start considering things modern from industrial tbh.

 

[Arakhor]

Assuming real-world analogues as you seem to be, the Classical era should end in 500 at the latest, given that the Western Roman Empire expired in 476 with Romulus Augustulus. Justinian and the building of the Hagia Sophia in the Sixth Century is the earliest part of the Middle Ages.

Likewise, the Mediaeval should probably end around 1400-1500. It shouldn't be before the Black Death of 1358 and the fall of Constantinople in 1453 is one of the traditional dates of the end of the Middle Ages. The Reformation is definitely in the Renaissance.

1700-1920 seems like a good timeframe for the Industrial Era. It coincides with the Georgian Era in Britain and Napoleon and Washington are both definitely Industrial Era figures. The end of WWI then puts a firm end on the Industrial Era and the start of something new, with "Christie-time" in mystery novels, the Great Depression, prohibition in the US and so on.

 

[Noriad2]

So the question I have is When (what range of time) should each GS come out of Preh Era? The current 20,000BC to 6,000BC?

I'm currently watching "stories from the stone age" (*)

(*) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7bqi70B3tE&list=PL9BB248CA3F85D500

It tells how a bunch of hunter-gatherers in the middle-east slowly developed a sedentary lifestyle and experimented with growing crops. However shortly after that the climate became much dryer due to a small ice age during the Younger Dryas era which started around 11,000 BC. As there was much less nature to hunter-gather from due to general lack of moisture, these people were forced to develop systematic farming around a handful of oases that were the only sources of water left in the area.

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From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm

"Farming originated independently in different parts of the world as hunter gatherer societies transitioned to food production rather than food capture. It may have started about 12,000 years ago [ i.e. 10K BC ] with the domestication of livestock in the Fertile Crescent in western Asia, soon to be followed by the cultivation of crops."

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So according to this we can place farming tech at about 10K-11K BC. As it comes directly after Sedentary Lifestyle which ends the prehistoric age, we should place sedentary lifestyle and the end of the prehistoric age somewhere between 11,000 BC - 12,000 BC.

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The wikipedia entry of Sedentism (which is the correct name for sedentary lifestyle) lists different dates in several parts of the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism

"Historical regions of sedentary settlements

A year-round sedentary site, with its larger population, generates a substantial demand on local naturally occurring resources, a demand that may have triggered the development of deliberate agriculture. In the Middle East the Natufian culture was the first to become sedentary at around 12000 BC. The Natufians were sedentary for more than 2000 years before they, at some sites, started to cultivate plants around 10000 BC. However, the first sedentary sites were pre-agricultural, and they appeared during the Upper Paleolithic in Moravia in Europe and on the East European Plain during the interval of c. 25000-17000 BC.[3]

The Jōmon culture in Japan, which was primarily a coastal culture, was sedentary from c. 12000 to 10000 BC until the cultivation of rice at some sites in northern Kyushu.[4][5] In northernmost Scandinavia, there are several early sedentary sites without evidence of agriculture or cattle breeding. They appeared from c. 5300-4500 BC and are all located optimally in the landscape for extraction of major ecosystem resources.[6] In Sweden, the Lillberget Stone Age village site (c. 3900 BC) represents such a site, as do the Nyelv site (c. 5300 BC) in Norway, and the lake Inari site (c. 4500 BC) in Finland.[7] In northern Sweden the earliest indication of agriculture occurs at previously sedentary sites, and one example is the Bjurselet site used during the period c. 2700-1700 BC, famous for its large caches of long distance traded flint axes from Denmark and southernmost Sweden (some 1300 km). The evidence of small-scale agriculture at that site can be seen from c. 2300 BC (burnt cereals of barley)."

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My judgement: Sedentary lifestyle tech, which ends the prehistory, should be researched at 12,000 BC. Unless you want to argue that the peoples of Moravia and the East European Plain rushed Sedentary lifestyle, followed by backfilling older techs instead of developing Farming, then Sedentary Lifestyle should be at 25,000-17,000 BC.

 

[Arakhor]

12,000 BC is way too early. The Ice Age wasn't over until about 10,000 BC and whilst various regions entered the Mesolithic and Neolithic at different times, the Neolithic Revolution certainly didn't start until 10,000 BC at the very earliest. The date of 6,000 BC for the earliest cities (and the start of AND2) is a perfectly suitable beginning date for the Ancient Era.

 

[Noriad2]

It depends whether you want to date an era with the very first civ that reaches it, or when the bulk of civs reaches it. Regarding Ice ages, the life of Europeans was much more affected by them due to the massive amounts of ice and snow covering the lands, so peoples in warmer areas like the Middle East and India had it easier and were ahead of Europe in general development.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Good arguments Noriad. This, however, begs the question, are we talking about the formation of cities or of just sedentary lifestyle. I can see how there's actually a difference and we are trying to see sed lif as being the cutoff when perhaps the sed lif they are pointing to in those references are more to do with our tribalism tech. I like to think of it as Ancient is coming from the founding dates of the oldest discovered cities.

You list some earliest found sedentary communities and it seems like they are all extremely high land communities. Interesting.

 

[strategyonly]

Just saw documentary about the TransHuman stuff going on in the world as of TODAY and the future WOW, if u'll get a chance to see it its on the History Channel, it called The Next Human. (Ancient Aliens). The ending is quite , well WOW . . . . .

 

[Thunderbrd]

I saw that too and was going to bring it up. It talks about just about everything I'm writing my novels around. They did a pretty good job with it and it may help some of us to understand why the transhuman is designed the way it is. Azure had a pretty good grasp on that stuff.

What ending part are you referring to there?

 

[Arakhor]

It depends whether you want to date an era with the very first civ that reaches it, or when the bulk of civs reaches it. Regarding Ice ages, the life of Europeans was much more affected by them due to the massive amounts of ice and snow covering the lands, so peoples in warmer areas like the Middle East and India had it easier and were ahead of Europe in general development.

Which is why the Fertile Crescent (and the rise of the first great cities) is in Mesopotamia. Even Göbekli Tepe, the ancient early Neolithic ruins in eastern Turkey, date back to the the 9000s at the earliest. Probably not coincidentally, the ruins are sited on high ground. I'm not suggesting using northwest Europe for Stone Age dating, but choosing a date before even the Middle East has caught up would seem foolish.

By the way, Paradox's new space 4X strategy game Stellaris is out. If you're still looking for stuff to throw into the late game, I'm sure that there are plenty of ideas there.

 

[alberts8]

The biggest adjustment will be making the Preh era in all GS to end at ~6000BC and adding some more turns on the longest GS to that Era. While Classical and Medieval may lose a few turns on the 3 longest GS.

One last question for now. Was it necessary to change the "iYearIncrement = Number years that pass each turn" into "iMonthIncrement" for the 1st several Eras? Does iYear still function as it was originally designed? Would cut down on a lot of divide by 12 calculations if so.

JosEPh

It's not really possible to set fixed start or end dates for eras. E.G. the actual end date of the prehistoric era depends alot on how much turns a player needs to get through that Era. If there is just a single turn difference between how it is setup in the gamespeed and the actual number of turns needed in the game the actual start end dates will be very different from what you want.

Only month and day increments are stored so it is better to use months in the XML instead of years. All the internal date calculations are made based on days from the start date.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's not really possible to set fixed start or end dates for eras. E.G. the actual end date of the prehistoric era depends alot on how much turns a player needs to get through that Era. If there is just a single turn difference between how it is setup in the gamespeed and the actual number of turns needed in the game the actual start end dates will be very different from what you want.

Understood, that's why I'm using "~ xxxxx date" as a goal not a Hardset Date.

Only month and day increments are stored so it is better to use months in the XML instead of years. All the internal date calculations are made based on days from the start date.

Thank you for the info. Much appreciated.

JosEPh