Can ANYTHING beat TARF? (Tradition-Aesthetics-Rationalism-Freedom)

[GKShaman]

I know there have been countless other threads on this but Id really like to see another approach to the game and victory conditions.

With CIV V Brave New World taking gold out of the map and making it into trade routes does Small or Big AND Tall just always win the race?

I am incredibly biased in this since the only way/benefits I have seen is in playing tall (lots of cultural land, growth, wonders, and efficient cities with tons of culture, science, etc.)

Also I feel as teh game progresses - one can go for a cultural victory in the mid game with the Sistine Chapel, Globe Theatre, Aesthetics and then when Renaissance hits - one goes after Rationalism to catapult into the Industrial in which Freedom shines.

Now granted I have used Order instead of Freedom and that rocked also so TARF and TARO.


But I guess the question is - Can anything beat this strategy? Also how does one play differently? I've always been a Tall player. What the beauty/power in going wide?

I see the power and control in Domination games - I've won some and enjoyed them in a hollow kind of way.

Also has anyone won Diplomatic? How do u make another country vote for ya? I guess Liberation?

 

[joshua43214]

I prefer Commerce to Aesthetics unless doing a CV.

Diplomatic is simple to win, tech asap to Globalization, ally all the CS's, build the FB, put all your spies in caps as diplomats, win

 

[AW Arcaeca]

^ This.

@OP, if by TARF you mean TCRO (Tradition-Commerce-Rationalism-Order), then no, nothing can beat it . I vastly prefer commerce to aesthetics and as much as I like freedom an SP tree, I find order is more useful because I think it's generally less situational.

 

[Scarpa]

But I guess the question is - Can anything beat this strategy? Also how does one play differently? I've always been a Tall player. What the beauty/power in going wide?

Honestly, I can't answer what beats this strategy. I don't really play min/max style and won't play the same way every game just because it is most optimal.

As to how to play differently, choose ahead of time the style of game and maybe also you have to force yourself to forgo optimal strategy. For instance, I once decided before I even rolled the start (always random AI and emperor) that I wanted a 10 city x 10 pop wide science victory (G&K). I had to eliminate an early AI to make space and my first 5 cities were far flung to claim territory and hard to defend. It was touch and go for the first 150 turns. And then all of a sudden 100 turns later I have 11 cities with a minimum 12 pop and I'm burning through techs in a few turns each and rolling around in money. I ended up killing the two nearest neighbors for fun while I assembled my space ship.

So I can say while I do tend toward the typical 4 city tall style (and then puppets) a wide game can be a challenging and fun change of pace.

 

[Biologist]

Well, there's always BARF: Barbarian-killing Autocratic Religion Fundraisers (Honor-Piety-Commerce-Autocracy).

More seriously,

If you're talking about Deity-level games, then it's possible that only certain very specific strategies will work, because the AI has a ridiculous handicap. If you mean King or below, then it shouldn't really matter once you're capable of playing proficiently at those difficulty levels because the playing field is tilted in your favor or relatively level.

I personally play BNW at Emperor difficulty, and played GnK at Immortal (BNW is more difficult but more fun in my opinion). I'm probably not the best judge of what an optimal strategy is because I haven't been playing regularly. My most recent win was a tall Korea science victory, and even then I was only 1 part ahead of China when I launched the spaceship. That said, I think I'll take a stab at a wide non-Domination game (since Domination games tend to end up wide by default).

The best benefit to going wide that I can think of is that you're more likely to have a variety of luxury and strategic resources. The downside is that planting new cities while keeping your happiness in check is still something of a nightmare if you don't get enough luxuries. For policy/ideology trees, I would suggest:

Liberty-Piety-Commerce/Exploration-Order. Between Commerce and Exploration, choose whichever is more relevant for your map conditions. Shoshone are a blast to play when building wide, because you get more land (and thus more resources) from each city and don't need to wait for borders to expand to grab resources. Also you steer your ruin bonuses to get optimal outcomes early game. If that's too much of an easy button, I'd suggest China (early cash generation and good defense) or Poland (extra policies and a solid unit/building synergy).

Edit: The other thing about Ideologies is that sometimes, especially when you have a small military or low happiness, there is a political angle to consider. No matter how useful Freedom might be for you, if several influential civs pick Order you might be forced to switch plans or suffer crippling penalties.

 

[redwings1340]

Can anything beat it? No, probably not.

If you aren't on deity or multiplayer, can you win without it? Definitely.

I just played a game as the Netherlands on emperor where I went liberty/commerce opener/down exploration a bit/patronage to scholasticism/a few order policies/commerce to mercantilism/more order to end the game.

I didn't touch any of those trees you mentioned (I restricted myself from rationalism and tradition, and wasn't playing culturally) as was still able to win comfortably.

By the end of the game I was able to found new cities and buy all relevant buildings in them in about 10 turns of income. This certainly doesn't beat your strat, but it is pretty fun. If you find yourself relying on certain policy trees or just want to play a game for fun, try to restrict yourself from TARF and try to find combos that work. Even if your time isn't as fast, you'll probably have more fun doing it.

 

[tommynt]

Once u understand the game u ll start pick at least 3 in liberty - most of times

 

[CHEESE!]

Somewhat OT, but I really have to ask: I can't stand social policies being obvious choices independent of map / civ. Can anyone recommend me a mod that makes e.g. Piety and Honor not suck, and Tradition and Rationalism not obvious?

 

[GKShaman]

Haha BARF made me laugh. Yeah I definitely am just going into TARF each time - really liking the synergy

Tradition builds u tall with culture - Aesthetics expands the culture and borders - The expanded culture than gets u Rationalism which pushes ur science into factories for an ideology.

Once though I played an Odd combo of Honor Opener, Tradition (As Spain so the 500 gold went to settler) Exploration

The exploration tree can make mad cash. As Im assuming people are recommending the Liberty Exploration/Commerce Approach - I can definitely see that value.

I usually play Immortal trying to move up to Diety. I think I might need to step down the difficulty to get used to a new strategy.

Just curious - how do liberty/honor/piety players do with wonders? Im just worried without Aristocracy or the food growth my cities wont be able to have the production in time - any tips?

Also do "Tall" have to keep it to 4 cities anymore? I just did a 6 city victory and I have done a Order close to victory with 8 cities in the past.

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

But I guess the question is - Can anything beat this strategy?

Nukes

 

[seancolorado]

Personally I favor Tradition-Patronage-Rationalism-Freedom (though not necessarily finishing the trees in that order, apart from Freedom Tradition (typo) which I always finish in full

Always thought Patronage was underrated round these parts

 

[zukenft]

TRO. aesthetics only have 2 useful policies, and order beats freedom any day.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

^ This.

@OP, if by TARF you mean TCRO (Tradition-Commerce-Rationalism-Order), then no, nothing can beat it . I vastly prefer commerce to aesthetics and as much as I like freedom an SP tree, I find order is more useful because I think it's generally less situational.

My experience has been that the AI loves Order and Autocracy -- I don't think I've ever taken Order and been the only one with it, but Freedom ...

 

[cpm4001]

TARF certainly is one of the "safest" routes and consistently works, but it can get a bit old. To tell the truth, I find I have the most fun when I mix it up and play with different policies. Actually, some of my best games have involved a little bit of every policy tree - for example, prior to the fall patch I played a great game as Spain where I went TLHPPARO: Tradition-Liberty-Honor-Piety-Patronage-Aesthetics-Rationalism-Order (and if you can't pronounce that acronym, good for you.) Now, granted I didn't take every policy in all those trees, but combining some from all those trees made for a very unique game that also let me take full advantage of Spain's various abilities.

 

[jlim201]

TLPARF

Tradition, Liberty, Patronage, Aesthesics, Rationalism, Freedom

 

[lawereyanlu]

This certainly doesn't beat your strat, but it is pretty fun.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Once u understand the game u ll start pick at least 3 in liberty - most of times

LOC: Liberty-Commerce-Order for domination (huge happiness, cash and production boost)

 

[Wbez]

Somewhat OT, but I really have to ask: I can't stand social policies being obvious choices independent of map / civ. Can anyone recommend me a mod that makes e.g. Piety and Honor not suck, and Tradition and Rationalism not obvious?

Reform and Rule off the mods forum here is pretty good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Just curious - how do liberty/honor/piety players do with wonders? Im just worried without Aristocracy or the food growth my cities wont be able to have the production in time - any tips?

Honor is obvious, don't build them, just take them.

Liberty, you just need to work more mines, growth is important and it is rough competing with a tradition civ but if you beeline the techs for wonders you want you can often get them. Use your trade routes internally to get cities on par with the tradition civs. Liberty requires more micromanagement. Place citizens manually for production when you really need it and food the rest of the time.

Piety is a bit more rough because it depends on your beliefs. With Piety you can found fairly easily without a faith pantheon so you can make up for the growth with Sun God or Goddess of the Hunt (I prefer those two over fertility rites because fertility rites has a pretty low yield in the early game). Piety doesn't have growth production or culture bonuses(not early on at least) like the other trees so your religious beliefs have to pick up the slack. Religious community can be a decent belief that really snowballs in the late game after you start building factories. A nice big city with religious community will make you forget all about aristocracy.

 

[GKShaman]

Ok I definitely am liking LOC and the benefits Liberty and Honor can provide.

I guess the big question is how to match the culture that TARF generates?
The big thing for me is that Tradition civs get the beginning culture than go aesthetics to get MORE culture. On top of that they finish Aesthetics and go Rationalism to get ahead in science to get access to free policy culture wonders.

How do the others keep up culturally and science? Since Honor/Warmongering can take out threats do those players just annex capitals and rebuild them to their best ability?

Thanks for the tips guys. Im starting to think in CIV 6/ a patch they should definitely make another game plan.