Can/Should Civs be able to leave World Congress?

[George is Angry]

Hi folks. Long time lurker first time poster, so be gentle with me.


As the title asks, can Civs leave the World Congress? Say you're a warmonger and the world passes a tax on standing army. Can you just leave the Congress, thereby nullifying its effects? Or, if not, would it make sense to add this as a caveat to diplomacy? I sort of anti-diplomacy, if you will.

I know Civ is just a game, but realistically, if the UN passed some kind of standing army tax, or a ban on luxury resources, a lot of countries could just say "Lol, don't care", since the UN can't really enforce said tax. However, in terms of the game, leaving the WC could prevent said nation from getting taxed and still get Happiness on banned luxury items, but they lose the right to vote (obviously), and embargoes can still be passed against them, since they effect how other Civs react with them, not them themselves (lots of them's there; my bad).

And perhaps -- to prevent Civs from joining and leaving at their leisure -- make it so that you can only leave or rejoin the WC every 60 turns or so.

What do you guys think?

 

[78stonewobble]

Heh... Well considering how successfull the UN is (or isn't)...

We should pretty much be able to ignore everything, but risk embargo.

 

[kaspergm]

Heh... Well considering how successfull the UN is (or isn't)...

We should pretty much be able to ignore everything, but risk embargo.

I agree, one should be able to go against the World Congress but get a major (MAJOR) diplomatic modifier with other civs for it, at least those who voted for the resolution.

 

[78stonewobble]

I agree, one should be able to go against the World Congress but get a major (MAJOR) diplomatic modifier with other civs for it, at least those who voted for the resolution.

That too ... in addition to a trade hit. Agreed.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

I think there should be the option to leave at any point, however you take a great modifier against all civs still within, and you could not trade ANY rescources with those who are still in the congress. As well, you will not be able to vote for a new world leader, thus leaving yourself open for an easy diplomatic loss (I can imahine a game where everyone drops out to declare war on each other freely, and the one remaining peaceful corner civ by default gets all the votes at the next world council meeting, winning). Also, both leaving and rejoining would cause one turn of anarchy (initial joining has no effect).

 

[Talcove]

But then wouldn't everyone just leave the congress? That would make it useless.
Or what if the majority of the people left the congress? Then there would be penalties for the people IN the congress.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

But then wouldn't everyone just leave the congress? That would make it useless.
Or what if the majority of the people left the congress? Then there would be penalties for the people IN the congress.

But again, if there is only one man in the congress he auto wins 10 turns after the UN is built an elections roll around. I'd declare that a reason to stay in. Also, if you are not in, you cannot vote for things that might benefit you.

 

[I_qua_I]

Civs should not be able to leave/ignore the world congress. It would essentially render it altogether meaningless. All anybody would do is go along when it suits them and just bail when it doesn't. Why would they care about a diplo or trade hit when they plan to just wipe the others out anyway? This would just allow players to exploit the others by benefiting from congress until they have their military forces in position or some resolution passed that somebody else worked hard to garner votes for (bribing, using diplomats, buying CSes, etc.). It can take real resources to earn these votes. Who would want to risk dedicating any moderate effort in getting something to pass. In multiplayer it might as well then not even exist.

p.s. Where's the poll?

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Welcome to posting, George is Angry; I think there should be the option to leave and hope there is. In fact, when modding the game, I hope that there'll be an opportunity to have some civs in a congress and some civs not.

 

[kingchris20]

No. I think a WC that forces everyone to join and forces everyone to vote and forces everyone to take the benefit/penalty, is the best form.

 

[78stonewobble]

Civs should not be able to leave/ignore the world congress. It would essentially render it altogether meaningless. All anybody would do is go along when it suits them and just bail when it doesn't. Why would they care about a diplo or trade hit when they plan to just wipe the others out anyway? This would just allow players to exploit the others by benefiting from congress until they have their military forces in position or some resolution passed that somebody else worked hard to garner votes for (bribing, using diplomats, buying CSes, etc.). It can take real resources to earn these votes. Who would want to risk dedicating any moderate effort in getting something to pass. In multiplayer it might as well then not even exist.

p.s. Where's the poll?

I guess it's gonna depend on how smart the ai will end up and how big a boon it will be to be in the congress/UN versus how much of a punishment it will end up.

A boon could also something like waging a sanctioned war that gives little to no diplomatic hit.

Well I don't know how it will play out yet.

 

[UkrNixon]

No, ability to leave WC would make it completely useless, as everyone would leave it.

 

[78stonewobble]

No. I think a WC that forces everyone to join and forces everyone to vote and forces everyone to take the benefit/penalty, is the best form.

It's probably the most practical form, but wouldn't be the most realistic.

It might work out to be the best for keeping the WC a valid gameplay component, but then it's a bit of a crutch solution because other elements aren't realistic enough.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

It is an imperfect translation to reality just like all the new victory conditions. Only complete domination of non-allied cities would meet with a real expectation of realism.

Think of it in terms of America even. Say what you will about our role as world citizens, but we generally try to do what is right (e.g. we work through the bureaucracy of the U. N. to deal with Iran rather than nuke them five ways to Sunday). That said try to imagine the following:
-a European/Chinese alliance sails an army across the Atlantic and occupies Washington D. C. and expects the remaining forces of the U.S. to surrender.
-The E.U. creates a utopian government model and thinks it will apply to the Americas (or Middle East for that matter) and expects everyone to fall in line.
-China sends an expedition to Alpha Centauri and is pronounced world leader.
-The U.N. becomes less of a joke and all the nation's other than the U.S. sign an agreement to be ruled via it under the new PM.
-After a complete tea party takeover of the U.S. and subsequent Arts defunding paired with a general economic collapse, China's tourism outstrips the "West's." President Rand Paul would surrender to their superior" culture" ?

As you can see, sometimes you have to sacrifice reality to play a game.

 

[IkM]

Yes. but with huge diplo hit and embargo.

 

[Homusubi]

It is an imperfect translation to reality just like all the new victory conditions. Only complete domination of non-allied cities would meet with a real expectation of realism.

Think of it in terms of America even. Say what you will about our role as world citizens, but we generally try to do what is right (e.g. we work through the bureaucracy of the U. N. to deal with Iran rather than nuke them five ways to Sunday). That said try to imagine the following:
-a European/Chinese alliance sails an army across the Atlantic and occupies Washington D. C. and expects the remaining forces of the U.S. to surrender.
-The E.U. creates a utopian government model and thinks it will apply to the Americas (or Middle East for that matter) and expects everyone to fall in line.
-China sends an expedition to Alpha Centauri and is pronounced world leader.
-The U.N. becomes less of a joke and all the nation's other than the U.S. sign an agreement to be ruled via it under the new PM.
-After a complete tea party takeover of the U.S. and subsequent Arts defunding paired with a general economic collapse, China's tourism outstrips the "West's." President Rand Paul would surrender to their superior" culture" ?

As you can see, sometimes you have to sacrifice reality to play a game.

Don't make me dream...

 

[78stonewobble]

It is an imperfect translation to reality just like all the new victory conditions. Only complete domination of non-allied cities would meet with a real expectation of realism.

Think of it in terms of America even. Say what you will about our role as world citizens, but we generally try to do what is right (e.g. we work through the bureaucracy of the U. N. to deal with Iran rather than nuke them five ways to Sunday). That said try to imagine the following:
-a European/Chinese alliance sails an army across the Atlantic and occupies Washington D. C. and expects the remaining forces of the U.S. to surrender.
-The E.U. creates a utopian government model and thinks it will apply to the Americas (or Middle East for that matter) and expects everyone to fall in line.
-China sends an expedition to Alpha Centauri and is pronounced world leader.
-The U.N. becomes less of a joke and all the nation's other than the U.S. sign an agreement to be ruled via it under the new PM.
-After a complete tea party takeover of the U.S. and subsequent Arts defunding paired with a general economic collapse, China's tourism outstrips the "West's." President Rand Paul would surrender to their superior" culture" ?

As you can see, sometimes you have to sacrifice reality to play a game.

*snicker*

Agreed...

Though in my case I kinda view the victory options not as "victory" per say, but more of a guaranteed survival for the forseeable future.

Being variations of getting everyone else to be like you (through force or inspiration) or simply being the only ones backed up (alpha centauri colony).

When will we ever get a new alpha cent btw. ?

 

[Feyd Rautha]

RE: Alpha Centauri remake
There could be challenges since that series was separated from the CiviliZation series and at least partially is in the hands of another company. It has Sid's name, but it's not completely his.

 

[ThisNameIsTooLo]

I think we ought to scrap the current system of victory conditions.

Instead, every game should play all the way up to 2050 AD, even if all but one Civilization has been wiped out. Score is no longer dependent on land area, population, wonders, and the like. Instead, you get points every time your empire accomplishes something great. Think of these as mini-victory conditions. You get points every time you:

• Discover any Technology first.
• Reach any Era first.
• Acquire any Social Policy first.
• Complete any Social Policy Tree first.
• Eliminate any Civilization (if multiple Civs were at war with the eliminated Civ, the points are divided based on how many battles each won, to lessen the impact of "kill-stealing").

I have to go, I'll expand on this list later.

 

[Calouste]

I'd rather see Firaxis put some resources in other areas rather than writing code for the AI to work out whether it should stay in the World Congress or not.

And I haven't seen anyone in this thread propose a penalty for dropping out of the World Congress that doesn't already exist in a similar way as a resolution. Trade Embargo exists, losing votes in itself doesn't exist, but your opponents can give themselves more votes in three different ways, which has the same net effect, and a diplo hit for voting against someone else's resolution would seem obvious.