Can some things be moved to modules?

[Torugu]

I think the Infernal fit the role of summonable fallow civ that aggressively terraforms and gets population from death very well (the Legion gets population from death in a different manner, ok ). I just see the Frozen as icy Infernals, perhaps they play differently but I turned them off a long time ago.

They are different, that's not the problem. The problem is that just having them in the game is HELL every other civ. (Kind of ironic since we were just talking about the Infernals.) Even if they don't do anything at all.

 

[Morkonan]

I think they only fall into that as a result of them being your generic, stereotypical "Native Americans". Teepee and all.

Yeah, the suspension of disbelief is sort of impossible when staring at some guy that looks like Ten Bears from "The Outlaw Josey Wales"...

They won't portray that stereotype once I'm done with them.

After reading the Civ entry here, my stupid idea:

Wood-Elvish-like nomads.
No city larger than 10 pop or whatever for balance.
Initial production bonuses in forest/plains.
Superior light cavalry and hunter units or bonuses for these units in appropriate terrain.
Starting Mana - Life, Nature, Fire (Might link it to special buildings/events/techs or something)

Leaders - Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic only. Alignment determined by below.

Hero - Iron Heart (An image from a western where an old Indian chief wore a conquistador's breastplate comes to mind.) - Functions as a General Unit w existing exp to distribute to desired promos.

Unique Mechanic - Nomadic - Let them be able to pick an entire city up and move to a new location every xx turns... May be necessary to limit the number of cities they can do that with or only once the city has reached a certain population. Also resets their Culture Boundaries.. May be difficult to do.

Special - Beast Cult Only Religion (Ritual Spell, perhaps?)

Each cast of special Beast Cult Spell (or building/whatever works) resets Worship to:
Archeron - Evil - (fire mana bonus) - Peace with Barbs ala Clan
Gurid - Good - (banana toss bonus?/jungle bonus/+food?) - Peace with Animals
Clyde the Orangutan - Good - (whatever his name is/ bonus..stinkey finger?) - Peace with Animals
Leviathan - Evil -(ocean bonus/gets access to some Lanun-like bonus/water mana bonus.. Or, better yet, gets one city that can move over water. No peace with Barb/Animals.

(Note: Just because they worship the animal doesn't mean it does anything for them. Or not - Coder's choice. Civs that kill their Beast totem animal would really tick them off..)

Unique Unit - Chislev's get access to "Braves" aka: the Scion's suicidal recon units that have to be upgraded to Emperor's Dagger.. forget their name atm. At level 5, they can begin to select Blood promotions - ie: existing Animal Blood promotions. May have to limit the number of Braves they can have to 4 and change the required level to suit.

Prohibited Units/Buildings - Mages/Magic Related buildings. Let them use a Shaman mechanic. Also can't build Mana nodes. (They're Nomads...)

Civ World Spell - Unite (Warpath/Holy War/Crusade/Whatever you want to call it)

All Animal units become aligned with with Chislev, permanently for existing animals and spawns new animals w% chance for promotions for 20 turns. (Regular animals will continue to spawn after 20 turns.) Work it so it can't be cast before a certain tech level is reached so Chislev isn't steamrolling Civs on turn 1... (Special animal spawns not effected by their World Spell.) Base Military Unit production is doubled during that time. (Heroes, siege equipment, Shaman not included.)

OR, for 10-20 turns, you can let them control the particular Beast Totem Animal they're worshiping at the time the spell is cast..

Add all ingredients into a bucket, stir with new artwork, cut the fat, throw-out the stupid stuff, take what you like, balance, release.. blame Morkonan's ignorance of game mechanics if it sucks, ban he from forums 4EVAR!

 

[Torugu]

Well, Valk has already stated that there are plans to have a moving cities mechanic for a certain civ and the Chislev was one of the candidates for that, however since he has stated that they will be more like Pueblo Indians I doubt that he meant them (my money is still on the Lanun, though that's just a gut feeling).

And personally I think the hole animal worship thing steps on the toes of the Doviello...


+ Minor niggling point: I don't see why the giant apes should be good rather than neutral.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah, way off base with the plans we have. And since those plans also involve another feature that's coming in (not a new mechanic, new feature ), it won't work.

Pueblo/Tibetan. Mandalas, chants, ritual dances, etc.

 

[Nor'easter]

I think the Infernal fit the role of summonable fallow civ that aggressively terraforms and gets population from death very well (the Legion gets population from death in a different manner, ok ). I just see the Frozen as icy Infernals, perhaps they play differently but I turned them off a long time ago.

They also have elements of the Illians -- the same rituals, the ability to have their hero ascend. Anyway, now that I discovered the "No Liberation" option, that's how I play.

 

[Jabie]

They also have elements of the Illians -- the same rituals, the ability to have their hero ascend. Anyway, now that I discovered the "No Liberation" option, that's how I play.

Yeah. I have to agree that the Frozen are far too similar to the Illians for my liking.

There is potential axis which could be exploited with them. If the Mechanos represent striving towards the future and the Scions represents recreating the glories of the past, the Frozen could represent preserving the present.

As for Chislev... Check out some of David Howery's adventures in Dungeon magazine. I seem to recall a whole strand of really good D&D scenarios based on native America and colonial Africa.

 

[Torugu]

Yeah. I have to agree that the Frozen are far too similar to the Illians for my liking.

There is potential axis which could be exploited with them. If the Mechanos represent striving towards the future and the Scions represents recreating the glories of the past, the Frozen could represent preserving the present.

As for Chislev... Check out some of David Howery's adventures in Dungeon magazine. I seem to recall a whole strand of really good D&D scenarios based on native America and colonial Africa.

And the Svarts are far too similar to the Ljosalfar.

I really don't think that's the problem...

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

And the Svarts are far too similar to the Ljosalfar.

I really don't think that's the problem...

Bad design is adding something that plays or feels the same way, making choices less unique and important.

The two elves are meant to be two sides of the coin, as such they must have some similarity. Bad design would be to add two sides to every civilization, since it would make the dynamic common and less interesting. Basically the elves are two different civs because you want to have their civil war in the game.

Mercurians and Infernal are two sides that differ quite alot, both in mechanics and units. Frozen feels like a rip off to the infernal because they play the same, also they heavily stomp on the ground of the Illians. Both things makes them redundant.

The lizard men are quite different, but the evil ones are far more boring to play. Little options to go different ways, but of course, that makes the AI play them quite well.

 

[KamikazeFTW]

Well, Valk has already stated that there are plans to have a moving cities mechanic for a certain civ and the Chislev was one of the candidates for that, however since he has stated that they will be more like Pueblo Indians I doubt that he meant them (my money is still on the Lanun, though that's just a gut feeling).

MOVING CITIES??? the team has finally figured out how to make it work O.o

it's kinda humorous how many failed civ ideas have com and gone because somebody wanted moveable cities and nobody could figure out to implement it (to the extent of my knowledge)

 

[Valkrionn]

We haven't done it yet. And don't worry about how it will happen.

 

[Krieger66]

Well, Valk has already stated that there are plans to have a moving cities mechanic for a certain civ and the Chislev was one of the candidates for that, however since he has stated that they will be more like Pueblo Indians I doubt that he meant them (my money is still on the Lanun, though that's just a gut feeling).

Mechanos

 

[Valkrionn]

They have enough special mechanics.

 

[Rudenut]

I think you missed the point completly. If you put something strongly based on history in a dark fantasy mod, you could basically insert something else equally based on history and it would make as much sense. It has nothing to do with Infernal or Mercurians.




And gameplay wise, it matters not where their stuff comes from, they are still treading on the same ground which makes them redundant. Either find a original niche for them instead of adding similar gameplay with arbitary background differences.

Taking queues from native americans for the chislev is not dissimilar to doviello/viking, malakim/middle east, bannor/european crusaders. And I really like them. "Patiently" (read barely containing myself) awaiting the content update for them.

 

[Elder Methyl]

Agreed. What law does it state that only European civs are worthy to be in Dark Fantasy? Don't get me wrong, I like seeing France or England or the Holy Roman Empire with the serial numbers filed off (how many times have we seen nations named Francia or the Holy Empire or Alboin in published work?), but I would like to see something different now and again.

@CarnivalBizzare: If it turns out that I misrepresented you, then I'm sorry. It's just that I've seen more obvious borrowings of European civs elsewhere and took issue to the perception that other cultures are somehow 'unworthy' of being borrowed as well, gameplay be dammned. I'll take your word that the Chislev, as they are now, bring nothing new in terms of mechanics and action.

 

[Tasunke]

So despite the Slavic-sounding civ name, no Slavic or Kievan units? I want my Varangian Guards!

No, I'm kidding, of course, I know you're going to come up with something cool.

hmm ... is it just me or do Varangian Guards have nothing to do with Slavic people? Unless you consider Vikings more Slavic than Nordic.

cause .. werent Varangian Guards the elite Vikings that went to guard the Eastern Roman Empire? (Byzantine) ... the "Emperor's Axe wielding Barbarians"


///
If anything, Varangian Guards would be special "Doviello Units" that can only be built by Kuriotates/Elohim/Bannor (maybe if Doviello was a vassal or an ally)

 

[Elder Methyl]

The first Varangian Guards came from the Kingdom of Rus, which was founded by Vikings but became Kiev when it became Slavocized (not sure if that was the right word). Later recruits came from Scandinavia, but the composition of the Guard became increasingly Anglo-Saxon after the Normans invaded England.

Also, I reread Carnival Bizzare's first post:

Native Indians don't fit in a Dark Fantasy mod. At all.

It might just be me, but this statement seems ethnocentric. Is Dark Fantasy only for Europeans? Should everything that doesn't fit the confines of 'Medieval European Fantasy' be excised out of all Speculative Fiction books, games, and mods? If this was purely a gameplay argument, woudn't a statement of "The Chislev don't add anything new" be adequate? Don't get me wrong, I like European-style worlds and stories, but that's only because there's so many of them that some of them have to be good.

Edit: If this was insulting or misrepresenting, please tell me so that I can fix it.

 

[Viatos]

It might just be me, but this statement seems ethnocentric. Is Dark Fantasy only for Europeans? Should everything that doesn't fit the confines of 'Medieval European Fantasy' be excised out of all Speculative Fiction books, games, and mods? If this was purely a gameplay argument, woudn't a statement of "The Chislev don't add anything new" be adequate? Don't get me wrong, I like European-style worlds and stories, but that's only because there's so many of them that some of them have to be good.

It's not just you. Both Native American and steampunk imagery have storied histories in fantasy; neither is out of place. There is a subgenre of fantasy that limits itself to "Medieval Europe and sometimes East Asia", but it's not the dominating theme of RifE.

 

[Elder Methyl]

Thank you again.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

It might just be me, but this statement seems ethnocentric. Is Dark Fantasy only for Europeans? Should everything that doesn't fit the confines of 'Medieval European Fantasy' be excised out of all Speculative Fiction books, games, and mods? If this was purely a gameplay argument, woudn't a statement of "The Chislev don't add anything new" be adequate? Don't get me wrong, I like European-style worlds and stories, but that's only because there's so many of them that some of them have to be good.

Edit: If this was insulting or misrepresenting, please tell me so that I can fix it.

Ethnocentric... .
Who says anything about being for Europeans, that was hardly the point. The point was a carbon copy of a human civilization with basically no mod specific changes to them did not fit in the mod. First this was denied in this thread that oh, they were more Tibetan lalala, and lastly it was confirmed that they actually were a carbon copy of north American natives, but they would be changed a lot, which is all well and good.

My problem with steam punk was that ethnocentric as well?
Carbon copies or civ's that are redundant is my problem. There are other civs I want to remove as well because they are not unique in one bit, but Valk has said before that FFH introduced civs will not be cut. Ever, so that was that.

 

[Valkrionn]

It was never denied; The Tibetan reference was directed to how they will be changed. Go back and read the posts; I always stated that we have plans to change them into something more unique.