[GS] Canada Discussion Thread

[drubell]

Without further information about the Diplomatic VC or whatever they're changing for the Culture VC, it's a little difficult to get a good judgment on this one. The idea of a civ that wants to get heavily involved with resolving Emergencies is interesting, but if you have a start bias in the tundra, I foresee that Canada will risk not being able to get to the objectives on time since you rarely will start in a central location.

Tundra hexes are still very undesirable, and using up builder charges just to make them par for the course doesn't sound fun. Maybe if Canadian builders had a couple free charges in tundra, that would've worked out better to me.

Overall I'm looking at a civ with a slow start. It has some viability toward the late game, but doesn't really have much interesting going for them until then. The civ comes off more of a joke civ that a modder would make without much thought for the design rather than a well-designed representation for the first Diplo VC contender and first representation of Canada in Civ.

Edit- I also really dislike the mountie being focused on defensive bonuses. If I have a civ that wants to participate in Emergencies, I want a unit that can get to the Emergency objective quickly and actually have some innate power with the unit's design.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Honestly I couldn't say why I find hockey less offputting than other sports. I'm not about to become a fan and you couldn't pay me (unless it were a very large sum ) to attend a game, but for some ineffable reason I find it less...offensive?

I went to one semi-professional game. The fights the players had were more entertaining than the actual game. They were also mostly Canadian born who played in Texas.

 

[Navelgazer]

You know what would have been a cool use for the Mountie that would make sense historically? Something like an extra loyalty bonus to a city when within its limits, so you can move them around as need be to deal with having what will hopefully be a large land-empire. It fits the fact that the RCMP is a police force rather than military, and also that they are utilized by most but not all provinces and territories for provincial peacekeeping (thus having them act as mini-governors.)

That said the National Park bonus is cool (if weird) and can also help with the likelihood that Canada will have a lot of unused land and no faith bonuses.

 

[KayAU]

Looking at the first look again, I rather like Canada. Again, this is a civ with some major differences to other civs. Here are some thoughts on how I think it is going to play out:

• The inability to declare or be the target of surprise wars is intended to limit warfare, especially in the early game. I like this, as I prefer a peaceful playstyle, and the game is currently favoring early warmongering too much. Of course, Formal Wars are still very much possible in the early game if you want to do that.
• The tundra abilities look pretty nice. Farms on tundra...well, I suppose you can make nice enough tiles through adjacency bonuses when those come into effect, and if you manage to get St. Basil's Cathedral, you can make one great tundra city. It can also be useful to get housing or provide adjacency bonuses for other farms adjacent to tundra. The resource exploitation and cheap tile purchasing is the most interesting part for me, though. It remains to be seen how powerful the additional resources will be, but I like the idea of being able to acquire tundra resources more cheaply and abundantly.
• I strongly suspect diplomatic favor is going to be my favorite currency in GS, so the ability to get more as Canada is probably going to be very nice. I know next to nothing about how strong it is going to be, but I hope it will be a way to project some real power, without the need for war.
• The emergency system is currently underutilized. I suspect this will be improved in GS, which should work well for Canada. One new emergency type has already been shown.
• I really like the glimpse into the World Congress. Cooperative projects are back!
• The Hockey Rink looks to be a strong source of culture and tourism, even though it arrives late. This should synergize with Canada's additional diplomatic favor from tourism. Late game culture might be a bit more valuable now that there is an additional era at the end.
• I don't care for the Mounties' combat abilities, but love that you can create National Parks with them. This again synergizes with Canada's diplomatic favor from tourism, and also their ability to more cheaply acquire snow and tundra tiles.
• I really like the character model for Laurier.

I'm very much looking forward to the next livestream, as that should hopefully showcase diplomacy and peaceful play. I am particularly looking forward to seeing more of the World Congress.

 

[Giskler]

Actually, the scale of Aztec human sacrifice is unparalleled, even elsewhere in Mesoamerica or in Canaan.

Weren't the Phoenicians/Carthaginians also big fans of human sacrifice with Baal Hammon being their chief god?

 

[Jkchart]

Football is even more evangelical and zealous in Texas.

Don't remind me

 

[Phrozen]

Weren't the Phoenicians/Carthaginians also big fans of human sacrifice with Baal Hammon being their chief god?

They did it but it was probably way exaggerated due to Roman propaganda.

 

[Zaarin]

Just thinking about the tundra natural wonders that'll be truly spectacular for this civ... makes me drool.

So...Ubunsur Hollow and Eyjafjallajökull? (I've seen Crater Lake and Torres del Paine on tundra, too, but not as often...)

I will make no claim to deny this statement, as I am no expert in the matter, but I guess it will depend on sources, context and convention. e.g. Do we count Spartan Helot assassination as "ritual sacrifice"? (could be considered, in some way).

Unless you count religious war as ritual sacrifice (which would be a strange analysis), there's really nothing that comes close. The Maya, the Inca, the Canaanites--all practiced regular human sacrifice, but the scale of Aztec sacrifice dwarfs them in comparison. Then you have other civs like the Gauls who may have practiced occasional human sacrifice (on something like "once a century" scale).

Weren't the Phoenicians/Carthaginians also big fans of human sacrifice with Baal Hammon being their chief god?

The archaeological evidence is somewhat ambiguous, but yes, they probably did practice infant sacrifices at the dedication of important public buildings like temples or palaces and to avert bad omens. But the Aztec performed human sacrifices to make the sun rise (1,000 prisoners a day is certainly an exaggeration, however).

 

[Patine]

Weren't the Phoenicians/Carthaginians also big fans of human sacrifice with Baal Hammon being their chief god?

That's unclear, to be honest. The Book of Samuel says something inappropriate was being sacrificed by the Priests of Ba'al (the ones mentioned were Canaanite or Philistine, I believe, not specifically Phoenician), but I don't believe it was specifically stated what it was, and the writer of that book would not have had a purely objective viewpoint on that either. Human sacrifice in Carthage I've never seen verified evidence around except a few oblique Hellenistic and Roman references that may have well confused the known Illyrian penchant for such practice instead.

 

[Josephias]

The hockey rink is very sigh-inducing. I liked the idea of the railroad hotels better.

I have to admit that, while I'm OK with the Ice Hokey Rink, since I knew about the railorad hotels when we were talking about Chateau Frontenac (in R&F cover) I grew found of them as a very specific feature and I was actually expecting them (moreso as they are linked to one of the new expansión features). But not always things go as expected.

 

[pgm123]

Everyone who thinks the Four Faces of Peace ability is there because Canadians are stereotyped as nice seriously needs to read up on their history.

As soon as I read the bonuses from the ability, I immediately thought of only one reason why it's Canada's ability: Lester B. Pearson. And sure enough, the term "four faces of peace" comes from Pearson's Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech.

Pearson has a storied diplomatic career that made him one of Canada's greatest contributors to the global stage, and I'm a little surprised they went with Laurier for leader over him, though I can see why they might not want a leader that recent. Pearson played a huge role in the creation of the United Nations, and was almost assured the position of first UN Secretary General if it weren't for a Soviet veto (and again in 1953, received 10 of 11 votes for Secretary General but the Soviets vetoed him again). Pearson continued his efforts in building the UN as a global mediating and peacekeeping organization, leading the creation of the emergency force to calm the Suez Crisis. This was one of the first instances of a UN pecekeeping mission and Pearson's work earned him the Nobel Peace Prize and led to the "blue helmets" and a permanent UN peacekeeping force and the very idea of modern international peacekeeping efforts.

So I can't really think of a better ability for Canada, especially with the rework of diplomacy and the addition of the World Congress, than an echo of Pearson's efforts.

I knew it was his (after Googling it, lol), but I didn't quite understand why they didn't have him as the leader with this as his ability.

Weren't the Phoenicians/Carthaginians also big fans of human sacrifice with Baal Hammon being their chief god?

The best answer to that is that it is debated. There appears to be some evidence of human sacrifice, but that it wasn't common (according to the best evidence available). It appears that elites would promise to sacrifice children to save them from a crisis. Unlike Mesoamerica, there doesn't appear to be a tradition tying ritual sacrifice and battle (i.e. in Mesoamerica, soldiers would prefer to be sacrificed rather than be killed on the battlefield). The evidence seems to say that at least in Carthage, children were sacrificed to fulfill promises made during the crisis, even when things had come back to normal. It's still thought to be a rare practice, though.

There's some belief that the Hebrew story of Abraham offering up Isaac in sacrifice only to be stopped by God's messenger is connected to this ancient Canaanite practice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Hockey Rink looks to be a strong source of culture and tourism, even though it arrives late. This should synergize with Canada's additional diplomatic favor from tourism. Late game culture might be a bit more valuable now that there is an additional era at the end.

I don't think it arrives too late. It comes before Professional Sports since it's not their in the first look, which is where I thought it would be. I'm under the impression that it could even arrive at Games and Recreation in the Classical Era because I'm not sure where else you would be able to learn it.

 

[Patine]

Looking at the first look again, I rather like Canada. Again, this is a civ with some major differences to other civs. Here are some thoughts on how I think it is going to play out:

• The inability to declare or be the target of surprise wars is intended to limit warfare, especially in the early game. I like this, as I prefer a peaceful playstyle, and the game is currently favoring early warmongering too much. Of course, Formal Wars are still very much possible in the early game if you want to do that.

This ability means that Canada's response to Louis Riel's two rebellions in 1870 and 1885 just wouldn't have happened (or have would have been VERY different). I cry inaccurate stereotypes!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I don't think it arrives too late. It comes before Professional Sports since it's not their in the first look, which is where I thought it would be. I'm under the impression that it could even arrive at Games and Recreation in the Classical Era because I'm not sure where else you would be able to learn it.

Civil Engineering?

 

[UWHabs]

What a terrible choice and design all around, to the point I am surprised youtube likes to dislikes ratio is as good as usual

Let's be honest, practically nobody other than Canadians (sorry guys) particularly desired Canada to be in the game at all, especially as we have both Dene (Canadian natives) and Australia already. I kind of hoped it won't be there, but once its presence was basically confirmed I thought "oh okay, maybe its design will be something interesting - stuff like northern exploration, hudson bay company, world war expeditionary forces".

Nope, it turns out Firaxis really only included Canada because of its fanservice "we include modern countries of numerous Civ fanbase" and had no vision for it at all. Total flat stereotype. Tundra, peace, hockey and horse police. None of bonuses is particularly active or powerful.

The worst part of it is how legions of fools shall repeat stereotype memes about Canada even more. I really hate that on Reddit, almost as much as "gandhi nuke" and "russian winter".

When Canada rules the world, you'll all be sorry!

But yeah, I don't have a big problem with including more post-colonial nations, since it is nice to have some variety. But ideally, they should be done well.

First off, nobody in Canada would ever call them "ice hockey rinks". They're hockey rinks, or hockey arenas. And to me, I'd almost rather see them as a perfectly spammable tile with a small bonus, instead of a huge bonus but once per city. Like, at its max, the hockey rink could give 10 culture, 2 food, and 2 production, not to mention the amenity as well. I can't wait to find that icelandic volcano and stick a hockey rink on that crazy lava flow tile, it's going to be insanity. And I guess since Scotland already got its golf course, it only makes sense to have a similar one here, but I'm almost not sure I'm a fan of these "once per city map-spam improvements"

Farms on tundra is at least an interesting bonus, and I can learn to live with it. That will at least make northern cities livable for them, although again not really until the middle or late part of the game when farms actually get their adjacencies. When you get to the modern era, tundra farm triangles would be 4f tiles, which isn't terrible if you're spamming cities to get hockey rinks.

And the Mountie/National Park tie-in is a really cool ability, but again really weird to have them as an offensive force. Would have much rather they be, say, a unique support unit, or have some weird ability where they can't attack outside of Canadian territory. Heck, even if they were made as a unique replacement for the Ranger who could found National parks (and thus found them earlier than other civs can, potentially) would have made a little more sense, given that the recon line of units is much less militaristic. Although maybe that makes them even more just a clone of Scotland, lol.

I think part of what gets me is that 3/4 of their abilities are the "over-the-top" stereotypes (Mounties/Tundra/Hockey). I would have preferred ones less of them, and adding in something else that wasn't as over the top, like the railroad hotels, or at least something to represent the old fur trading days and the history of the country. Or something that represents our "non-American"-ness, even a simple bonus like extra loyalty for any city connected to your capital by road/rail/airport, would be a nice little touch.

 

[Zaarin]

That's unclear, to be honest. The Book of Samuel says something inappropriate was being sacrificed by the Priests of Ba'al (the ones mentioned were Canaanite or Philistine, I believe, not specifically Phoenician), but I don't believe it was specifically stated what it was, and the writer of that book would not have had a purely objective viewpoint on that either.

A number of Biblical passages reference child sacrifice to Moloch, whom some scholars connect to the Tyrian god Melqart. Take that for what you will.

Human sacrifice in Carthage I've never seen verified evidence around except a few oblique Hellenistic and Roman references

Mass graves have been found near Carthage, but they could have been plague victims. Some Punic texts seem to refer to infant sacrifice, including the Punic translation of Poenulus. I would say the Roman reports in this case (the Romans accused virtually everyone of human sacrifice) are exaggerated rather than entirely false.

The best answer to that is that it is debated. There appears to be some evidence of human sacrifice, but that it wasn't common (according to the best evidence available). It appears that elites would promise to sacrifice children to save them from a crisis. Unlike Mesoamerica, there doesn't appear to be a tradition tying ritual sacrifice and battle (i.e. in Mesoamerica, soldiers would prefer to be sacrificed rather than be killed on the battlefield). The evidence seems to say that at least in Carthage, children were sacrificed to fulfill promises made during the crisis, even when things had come back to normal. It's still thought to be a rare practice, though.

There's some belief that the Hebrew story of Abraham offering up Isaac in sacrifice only to be stopped by God's messenger is connected to this ancient Canaanite practice.

Yes, this. You can also see this in the Bible with the tale of Jephthah.

 

[wilcoxchar]

I knew it was his (after Googling it, lol), but I didn't quite understand why they didn't have him as the leader with this as his ability.

I do think Pearson would have been a better leader choice. But I can kind of see why since Pearson's work wasn't while he was leader and they maybe didn't want a leader that recent this time around.

 

[Jkchart]

Civil Engineering?

I don't think it arrives too late. It comes before Professional Sports since it's not their in the first look, which is where I thought it would be. I'm under the impression that it could even arrive at Games and Recreation in the Classical Era because I'm not sure where else you would be able to learn it.

Fools, it comes at Reformed Church! Like Golf! It's such a religious aspect of Canada, where else would it go??

 

[Myomoto]

I have to admit I'm incredibly disappointed by the unique unit and improvement. Hockey rinks and mounties is just so lazy, considering many of the ideas posted here...

 

[PhilBowles]

Looking at the first look again, I rather like Canada. Again, this is a civ with some major differences to other civs. Here are some thoughts on how I think it is going to play out:

• The inability to declare or be the target of surprise wars is intended to limit warfare, especially in the early game. I like this, as I prefer a peaceful playstyle, and the game is currently favoring early warmongering too much. Of course, Formal Wars are still very much possible in the early game if you want to do that.

It's quite possible that, as with Brave New World, the diplomatic focus in the expansion will come with an attendant reduction in AI aggression, in which case the inability to be the subject of a surprise war won't matter as much.